7 ms·

I come from a family with a few generations of engineers of all types. Mechanical/chemical/electrical engineers have a similar problem that 30 years experience

by rb808 10y ago

I come from a family with a few generations of engineers of all types. Mechanical/chemical/electrical engineers have a similar problem that 30 years experience isn't much more useful than 10, wages tend to top out early and you're vulnerable to being laid off and never hired again in your 40s/50s. One advantage over software is that the skills change perhaps less frequently but that is offset by lower overall demand. While you're in your 20's think about what you're going to do at the end of your 20 year window. Are you moving up to management? Have extensive business knowledge to add to tech skills? Have a second career planned? Or saved enough money to retire or semi-retire? Of course you can actively stay up to date with latest technology but that is much tougher than it sounds. You need to have thought a lot about this before you hit 40. For all the young guys out there. Don't think it wont happen to you. If you just follow day by day one day you'll wake up with a big mortgage, a couple of expensive kids, maybe a divorce and a bunch of recruiters that never return your phone calls. You need to avoid that place.

dba7dba 10y ago
So true. The question is, how do you avoid that place. Only so many can become managers. Only so many can start own business and keep it running.
- taylodl 10y ago
  Put your energy into ending the discrimination now before you too are affected by it.
- rootbear 10y ago
  Exactly! I would be a terrible manager and I have no entrepreneurial instincts at all. I'm way over 40 and I'm one layoff away from involuntary retirement. I suppose I could hook up with someone who was an entrepreneur, but there's no certainty of that happening.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- 20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
  I'm an excellent manager[1]. Alas, what I see is that startups start out with a CTO (the guy who actually built the thing) and there aren't a lot of manager jobs advertised. The few that were, I got discriminated against because of my age. Doh! [1] They tell me. I can't get too far from the code or its no fun, but I prefer to build teams and work at a high level than to be constantly coding all the time.
- daxfohl 10y ago
  So much of it is contacts. I'm in that place now. In my 20's and early 30's every job I got was through contacts. Since then I've been working solo projects at small companies for a number of years. Fun work, but suddenly it's dried up. I don't have any good recent contacts in the tech sector. So I'm competing with 22 year olds, with little to back me up. So don't do that. Try to keep in touch with former colleagues, and try to be widely-known in your company for doing good work and being easy to work with.
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    The line that stood out most in that article was the woman saying "Every job I've had I got through my contacts, but they're all gone now". It had never occurred to me, but it's obviously a huge problem for older job seekers. If you're 33, you might get a job using a recommendation from someone who managed you a decade ago. If you're 53, that same person retired years ago and doesn't have any pull to offer. And someone who worked for you 10 years ago can't recommend you easily, because it's hard to "recommend up" to a position above your own. It's a subtle sort of thing, it's not direct ageism but it's obviously a big hurdle for an older worker.
    - daxfohl 10y ago
      I think a few corollaries to that are: Stick with big companies. Yes by working at a small co you gain experience picking tech stacks, working on all areas of software, etc. But the ceiling is lower at small companies (only the very hottest couple startups each year notwithstanding). And the experience you gain there (mostly writing simple CRUD apps in various languages) isn't so applicable to larger companies where performance and scalability are the main things they want. So when you hit the glass ceiling of the "small co" sector, you're essentially starting all over when you move to the "big co" sector. That's where I am and it's almost like a career change. Compare this to a career path at a large co, where you move into senior engineering and the skills you gain are immediately useful when you apply to other large companies. You get free networking and visibility at big companies too, an underestimated fringe benefit. Also, pick your battles wisely when doing the "keep current on technology" thing. Avoid cute stuff that doesn't have a ton of use outside a very narrow segment (e.g. Haskell, logic programming, blockchain, marginally CUDA), unless you really want to devote your career to it. Also avoid overly-trendy stuff that will be obsolete in five years (JS frameworks, MongoDB). Stick with things that solve real problems that real companies have. To that end, search job boards and see what other large companies are hiring for.
nfriedly 10y ago
> Or saved enough money to retire or semi-retire? This. Do this and one of the other strategies. Just save some freaking money. I know far to many people who are up-to-their-eyes in debt and have almost no savings.
- daxfohl 10y ago
  You're young and single I'm guessing. What you say seems logical. However, saving enough money for yourself to retire (I have) is one thing, but then when the kids come and need braces, school stuff, extracurriculars, college, health insurance, etc., they're pretty well screwed if their parents can't find a job. Especially these days with people waiting longer to have kids, the 40-year-old employability cutoff is a problem.
  - rubicon33 10y ago
    If you don't mind me asking, how have you saved enough to retire? Worth asking also might be, how many years have you been saving for? Bay area housing costs seem to make saving very difficult. I'm not sure I'll be able to retire before 40
    - nfriedly 10y ago
      Not sure if you were asking me or daxfohl, but I've always been a saver. I got serious about it maybe 8-10 years ago. My savings rate has been trending upwards during that time, it's around 40-45% of my take-home pay now. I spent a year in the Bay area, but moved back to Ohio for family reasons. That helped, because things are so much less expensive out here. (Bear in mind, though, you can work in the Bay Area and then retire somewhere cheaper ;) http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ has some great articles on how to save money while still enjoying life. My top piece of advice is: do not buy a brand new car. Don't buy any car if you can manage it, but if you must own one, get something that's a few years old and half as expensive. And even then, try to ride a bicycle when possible.
      - 10y ago
bigger_cheese 10y ago
I'm a Materials Engineer in my 30's I work with a lot of Mech/Chem engineers. The engineering world is a bit different to software world. I'd say the main reason for this is there is a much lower applicant pool (Fewer graduates entering workforce). From what I have experienced engineers change companies much less frequently and engineering companies tend to be more stable than software companies (Most of the engineers I know either work for consultancies or large mining/industrial companies). Professional reputation is a big deal. If you have a good enough reputation you can basically negotiate for your own salary. Younger Engineers (i.e fresh from university) do not get to work on the large projects and especially not in any kind of lead role. Mostly they work under other more senior engineers. Typically you'll work your way up until you get given lead on a small project. Eventually you will move onto managing medium to large projects. Senior engineers (i.e 40's and 50's) are hugely valued. These are the people with professional reputations, contacts etc. Clients will know these Engineers by name and will often request them specifically. What I've seen typically happen is for engineers in the 50-60 age range to semi-retire and move into consulting or Academia. Many Engineering lecturers at universities are retired former practicing engineers. Several senior engineers I used to work with have moved into consulting and they get paid an obscene amount of money- more than I make in a years for a 3 month consulting gig in a country like Brazil, India, China etc. We have a diversity problems for sure but it is gender not age.
- Asooka 10y ago
  This can't work however, there's one manager to a team of 15 developers, so you can't have all 15 move up into management. Not unless you have 15 layers of management...

by rb808 10y ago

dba7dba 10y ago

So true. The question is, how do you avoid that place. Only so many can become managers. Only so many can start own business and keep it running.

taylodl 10y ago
Put your energy into ending the discrimination now before you too are affected by it.
rootbear 10y ago
Exactly! I would be a terrible manager and I have no entrepreneurial instincts at all. I'm way over 40 and I'm one layoff away from involuntary retirement. I suppose I could hook up with someone who was an entrepreneur, but there's no certainty of that happening.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
20yrs_no_equity 10y ago
I'm an excellent manager[1]. Alas, what I see is that startups start out with a CTO (the guy who actually built the thing) and there aren't a lot of manager jobs advertised. The few that were, I got discriminated against because of my age. Doh! [1] They tell me. I can't get too far from the code or its no fun, but I prefer to build teams and work at a high level than to be constantly coding all the time.
daxfohl 10y ago
So much of it is contacts. I'm in that place now. In my 20's and early 30's every job I got was through contacts. Since then I've been working solo projects at small companies for a number of years. Fun work, but suddenly it's dried up. I don't have any good recent contacts in the tech sector. So I'm competing with 22 year olds, with little to back me up. So don't do that. Try to keep in touch with former colleagues, and try to be widely-known in your company for doing good work and being easy to work with.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  The line that stood out most in that article was the woman saying "Every job I've had I got through my contacts, but they're all gone now". It had never occurred to me, but it's obviously a huge problem for older job seekers. If you're 33, you might get a job using a recommendation from someone who managed you a decade ago. If you're 53, that same person retired years ago and doesn't have any pull to offer. And someone who worked for you 10 years ago can't recommend you easily, because it's hard to "recommend up" to a position above your own. It's a subtle sort of thing, it's not direct ageism but it's obviously a big hurdle for an older worker.
  - daxfohl 10y ago
    I think a few corollaries to that are: Stick with big companies. Yes by working at a small co you gain experience picking tech stacks, working on all areas of software, etc. But the ceiling is lower at small companies (only the very hottest couple startups each year notwithstanding). And the experience you gain there (mostly writing simple CRUD apps in various languages) isn't so applicable to larger companies where performance and scalability are the main things they want. So when you hit the glass ceiling of the "small co" sector, you're essentially starting all over when you move to the "big co" sector. That's where I am and it's almost like a career change. Compare this to a career path at a large co, where you move into senior engineering and the skills you gain are immediately useful when you apply to other large companies. You get free networking and visibility at big companies too, an underestimated fringe benefit. Also, pick your battles wisely when doing the "keep current on technology" thing. Avoid cute stuff that doesn't have a ton of use outside a very narrow segment (e.g. Haskell, logic programming, blockchain, marginally CUDA), unless you really want to devote your career to it. Also avoid overly-trendy stuff that will be obsolete in five years (JS frameworks, MongoDB). Stick with things that solve real problems that real companies have. To that end, search job boards and see what other large companies are hiring for.

nfriedly 10y ago

> Or saved enough money to retire or semi-retire? This. Do this and one of the other strategies. Just save some freaking money. I know far to many people who are up-to-their-eyes in debt and have almost no savings.

daxfohl 10y ago
You're young and single I'm guessing. What you say seems logical. However, saving enough money for yourself to retire (I have) is one thing, but then when the kids come and need braces, school stuff, extracurriculars, college, health insurance, etc., they're pretty well screwed if their parents can't find a job. Especially these days with people waiting longer to have kids, the 40-year-old employability cutoff is a problem.
- rubicon33 10y ago
  If you don't mind me asking, how have you saved enough to retire? Worth asking also might be, how many years have you been saving for? Bay area housing costs seem to make saving very difficult. I'm not sure I'll be able to retire before 40
  - nfriedly 10y ago
    Not sure if you were asking me or daxfohl, but I've always been a saver. I got serious about it maybe 8-10 years ago. My savings rate has been trending upwards during that time, it's around 40-45% of my take-home pay now. I spent a year in the Bay area, but moved back to Ohio for family reasons. That helped, because things are so much less expensive out here. (Bear in mind, though, you can work in the Bay Area and then retire somewhere cheaper ;) http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ has some great articles on how to save money while still enjoying life. My top piece of advice is: do not buy a brand new car. Don't buy any car if you can manage it, but if you must own one, get something that's a few years old and half as expensive. And even then, try to ride a bicycle when possible.
    - 10y ago

bigger_cheese 10y ago

I'm a Materials Engineer in my 30's I work with a lot of Mech/Chem engineers. The engineering world is a bit different to software world. I'd say the main reason for this is there is a much lower applicant pool (Fewer graduates entering workforce). From what I have experienced engineers change companies much less frequently and engineering companies tend to be more stable than software companies (Most of the engineers I know either work for consultancies or large mining/industrial companies). Professional reputation is a big deal. If you have a good enough reputation you can basically negotiate for your own salary. Younger Engineers (i.e fresh from university) do not get to work on the large projects and especially not in any kind of lead role. Mostly they work under other more senior engineers. Typically you'll work your way up until you get given lead on a small project. Eventually you will move onto managing medium to large projects. Senior engineers (i.e 40's and 50's) are hugely valued. These are the people with professional reputations, contacts etc. Clients will know these Engineers by name and will often request them specifically. What I've seen typically happen is for engineers in the 50-60 age range to semi-retire and move into consulting or Academia. Many Engineering lecturers at universities are retired former practicing engineers. Several senior engineers I used to work with have moved into consulting and they get paid an obscene amount of money- more than I make in a years for a 3 month consulting gig in a country like Brazil, India, China etc. We have a diversity problems for sure but it is gender not age.

Asooka 10y ago
This can't work however, there's one manager to a team of 15 developers, so you can't have all 15 move up into management. Not unless you have 15 layers of management...