7 ms·

Not trying to be sarcastic but how would the world respond if someone starts, "Ask a male engineer"?

by NTDF9 10y ago

reitanqild 10y ago
Try rather with: "ask a male nurse". That is more comparable, i.e.: both are perfectly normal, but both are not too common for historical and possibly other reasons.
- NTDF9 10y ago
  But I'm not trying to 'balance' anything out. Equality means equal regardless of gender. So if one can have "Ask a female athlete", why not "Ask a male athlete". Your example is valid too. This is a genuine question. How would it be unequal for males to start such a forum for anything they want?
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    > This is a genuine question. How would it be unequal for males to start such a forum for anything they want? While I do care a lot I don't identify with the typical "SJW", so I think this should be perfectly OK, only very boring so I wouldn't create it.
    - NTDF9 10y ago
      Boring really? As a male who enjoys company of other males (not sexually), I have not found it boring at all. Mixed groups have definitely been socially better but I'd pick male mentoring forums any day. Boring isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I think of male-spaces. More like brotherhood, mentorship and competition.
      - 1q2w3e4r5t 10y ago
        Then start it. You're missing the point. Some people think that hearing from female engineers would benefit others. I (as a white, male, non-engineer) am one of them. That is the point of /this/. Start whatever group you want.
      - reitanqild 10y ago
        I see. Don't name it that way then. It just annoys people and make it sound like you can only ask questions about being a male engineer which is kind of uneventful it seems. Truth to be told I know there are women that enjoy hanging around in almost all-male groups as well because they find it more relaxed. Possibly wouldn't have believed if one of them hadn't told me though.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - hnbroseph 10y ago
    the point of "ask a female engineer" or "ask a male nurse" is that these are "minority groups" in those respective contexts and have distinct life experiences and insights as a result. > So if one can have "Ask a female athlete", why not "Ask a male athlete". you seem stuck on the "can have" bit, which isn't really the point.
    - NTDF9 10y ago
      >> you seem stuck on the "can have" bit, which isn't really the point. Ok, so you wouldn't oppose if a man goes and creates a group called, "Ask a brogrammer?" brogrammer = funny slang for male programmers, not meant to offend anyone but to bring male humor to other males
      - hnbroseph 10y ago
        "oppose"? no. though, to me "brogrammer" is a slightly derogatory term meaning a programmer with an "obnoxious frat guy" personality.
        NTDF9 10y ago
        Understandable. As a non-frat guy, I get what you are saying. Even then, I find the term 'brogrammer' hilarious. I think of it as humor for guys. It's kinda like the series, "Vagina monologues". Many men find it offensive, but it's humorous too right?
      - kaitai 10y ago
        You should do it and I hope it would be hilarious.
  - chillacy 10y ago
    To add some terminology: http://imgur.com/a/hS0yk http://imgur.com/a/hS0yk You're asking for the left picture, others are asking for the right picture. As for how the world would respond... some would laugh, some would get mad. But that would be like if you walked into some poor rural town afflicted by unemployment and held up a sign that said "I make over $100k working a tech job in San Francisco. Every spare bit of change helps." Some would laugh, others would want to punch your face.
    - NTDF9 10y ago
      I understand that picture very well. Thanks for bringing it up. I really think equality of opportunity should exist beyond social lines like gender, race, disabilities etc. But equality of outcome? Why? Why should everyone have equal outcome? What is the reward for hard work then? Why be a good person if being a bad one will bring the same outcome? When everyone starts with the same opportunities, the hardworker, smartworker, dedicated, persistent deserves more than the lazy, douchebag, not dedicated, not doing something themselves and always wanting others to do things for them. Don't you agree?
      - chillacy 10y ago
        I agree that equal outcome is undesirable. But if you truly had equal opportunity for something universally desired, let's say higher education, you would expect to see in your freshman class across all colleges a distribution matching the general population in all these factors, like gender/race/disabilities, and I would add wealth too. But when we look at these distributions we see some under represented, and some over represented. That seems to imply that there wasn't equal opportunity, or there's different desirability among the groups (e.g. maybe 90% of very tall people would rather play NBA basketball than go to college).
        ebfe 10y ago
        >you would expect to see in your freshman class across all colleges a distribution matching the general population in all these factors, like gender/race/disabilities Why would you expect this? The mean IQ of black Americans is a standard deviation below that of Asians. Surely you would expect to see relatively fewer of them.
- belorn 10y ago
  Please don't compare nurse, a rather low desired job, and engineering, a rather desired job. If you want to make a comparison, I would pick psychiatrist or veterinarian which both has similar desirability and technical requirements as engineering. Both also have a much worse gender equality ratios that engineering, with a trend going from bad to worse. "Ask a male psychiatrist" would be a interesting idea to push for more gender equality, except that A), males with mental health issues (which such channel would be associated with) are generally treated as the lowest on the cultural pecking order, B) male psychiatrist is basically becoming a extinct concept.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    Thanks! Please note though that I am not American and your experience might be a bit different than mine. Around here nurses and engineers have exactly the same number of years in school. A veterinarian is two more years I think. Edit: and you are making things worse by saying that being a nurse is an unattractive job.
    - belorn 10y ago
      Not an American also, as my view is based on the Swedish work market and culture. When I say nurse is a less desired job, I mean that in the number of student applications and average grade requirements. That is not to say that nurse profession is an unattractive job. It just that all professions are not equally desired, and statistics on student choice and student competition reflects that. Btw, nurse profession in Sweden is commonly 3 years, which is common for hands on professions like welders, plumbers, painters, musicians, carpenters and so on. Engineering is commonly 4 years, similar to veterinarian. Its the difference between master degree and bachelor's degree. I do not think its a major leap that professions with master degree requirements is generally considered to be more desired, has generally a higher pay rate, and is generally fought over more harshly. As such, comparing two professions with master degree requirements makes more sense.
      - reitanqild 10y ago
        In Norway next to Sweden, nurse is three years "høgskole" after three years "videregående". Same goes for engineer (except "sivilingeniør" which is another two years on top of that). Welder or carpenter is two years of "videregående" and then 2 (or more?) years as apprentice. So Nurse or engineer: 6 years study. Welder, carpenter etc: 2 years study + 2 years as apprentice.
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vacri 10y ago
If it were a genuine attempt to maturely discuss gender issues in the workplace from a male point of view, the world would probably be okay with it. If it were a knee-jerk "what about the menz?" fuck-you, then it'd be shouted down. There are lots of books and magazines out there that maturely examine men's experiences from a man's point of view, and no-one is shrilly protesting them.
- NTDF9 10y ago
  >> If it were a genuine attempt to maturely discuss gender issues in the workplace from a male point of view, the world would probably be okay with it. This is genuine. Thanks!

Not trying to be sarcastic but how would the world respond if someone starts, "Ask a male engineer"?

by NTDF9 10y ago

Not trying to be sarcastic but how would the world respond if someone starts, "Ask a male engineer"?

Try rather with: "ask a male nurse". That is more comparable, i.e.: both are perfectly normal, but both are not too common for historical and possibly other reasons.

NTDF9 10y ago
But I'm not trying to 'balance' anything out. Equality means equal regardless of gender. So if one can have "Ask a female athlete", why not "Ask a male athlete". Your example is valid too. This is a genuine question. How would it be unequal for males to start such a forum for anything they want?
- reitanqild 10y ago
  > This is a genuine question. How would it be unequal for males to start such a forum for anything they want? While I do care a lot I don't identify with the typical "SJW", so I think this should be perfectly OK, only very boring so I wouldn't create it.
  - NTDF9 10y ago
    Boring really? As a male who enjoys company of other males (not sexually), I have not found it boring at all. Mixed groups have definitely been socially better but I'd pick male mentoring forums any day. Boring isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I think of male-spaces. More like brotherhood, mentorship and competition.
    - 1q2w3e4r5t 10y ago
      Then start it. You're missing the point. Some people think that hearing from female engineers would benefit others. I (as a white, male, non-engineer) am one of them. That is the point of /this/. Start whatever group you want.
    - reitanqild 10y ago
      I see. Don't name it that way then. It just annoys people and make it sound like you can only ask questions about being a male engineer which is kind of uneventful it seems. Truth to be told I know there are women that enjoy hanging around in almost all-male groups as well because they find it more relaxed. Possibly wouldn't have believed if one of them hadn't told me though.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- hnbroseph 10y ago
  the point of "ask a female engineer" or "ask a male nurse" is that these are "minority groups" in those respective contexts and have distinct life experiences and insights as a result. > So if one can have "Ask a female athlete", why not "Ask a male athlete". you seem stuck on the "can have" bit, which isn't really the point.
  - NTDF9 10y ago
    >> you seem stuck on the "can have" bit, which isn't really the point. Ok, so you wouldn't oppose if a man goes and creates a group called, "Ask a brogrammer?" brogrammer = funny slang for male programmers, not meant to offend anyone but to bring male humor to other males
    - hnbroseph 10y ago
      "oppose"? no. though, to me "brogrammer" is a slightly derogatory term meaning a programmer with an "obnoxious frat guy" personality.
      - NTDF9 10y ago
        Understandable. As a non-frat guy, I get what you are saying. Even then, I find the term 'brogrammer' hilarious. I think of it as humor for guys. It's kinda like the series, "Vagina monologues". Many men find it offensive, but it's humorous too right?
    - kaitai 10y ago
      You should do it and I hope it would be hilarious.
- chillacy 10y ago
  To add some terminology: http://imgur.com/a/hS0yk http://imgur.com/a/hS0yk You're asking for the left picture, others are asking for the right picture. As for how the world would respond... some would laugh, some would get mad. But that would be like if you walked into some poor rural town afflicted by unemployment and held up a sign that said "I make over $100k working a tech job in San Francisco. Every spare bit of change helps." Some would laugh, others would want to punch your face.
  - NTDF9 10y ago
    I understand that picture very well. Thanks for bringing it up. I really think equality of opportunity should exist beyond social lines like gender, race, disabilities etc. But equality of outcome? Why? Why should everyone have equal outcome? What is the reward for hard work then? Why be a good person if being a bad one will bring the same outcome? When everyone starts with the same opportunities, the hardworker, smartworker, dedicated, persistent deserves more than the lazy, douchebag, not dedicated, not doing something themselves and always wanting others to do things for them. Don't you agree?
    - chillacy 10y ago
      I agree that equal outcome is undesirable. But if you truly had equal opportunity for something universally desired, let's say higher education, you would expect to see in your freshman class across all colleges a distribution matching the general population in all these factors, like gender/race/disabilities, and I would add wealth too. But when we look at these distributions we see some under represented, and some over represented. That seems to imply that there wasn't equal opportunity, or there's different desirability among the groups (e.g. maybe 90% of very tall people would rather play NBA basketball than go to college).
      - ebfe 10y ago
        >you would expect to see in your freshman class across all colleges a distribution matching the general population in all these factors, like gender/race/disabilities Why would you expect this? The mean IQ of black Americans is a standard deviation below that of Asians. Surely you would expect to see relatively fewer of them.
belorn 10y ago
Please don't compare nurse, a rather low desired job, and engineering, a rather desired job. If you want to make a comparison, I would pick psychiatrist or veterinarian which both has similar desirability and technical requirements as engineering. Both also have a much worse gender equality ratios that engineering, with a trend going from bad to worse. "Ask a male psychiatrist" would be a interesting idea to push for more gender equality, except that A), males with mental health issues (which such channel would be associated with) are generally treated as the lowest on the cultural pecking order, B) male psychiatrist is basically becoming a extinct concept.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  Thanks! Please note though that I am not American and your experience might be a bit different than mine. Around here nurses and engineers have exactly the same number of years in school. A veterinarian is two more years I think. Edit: and you are making things worse by saying that being a nurse is an unattractive job.
  - belorn 10y ago
    Not an American also, as my view is based on the Swedish work market and culture. When I say nurse is a less desired job, I mean that in the number of student applications and average grade requirements. That is not to say that nurse profession is an unattractive job. It just that all professions are not equally desired, and statistics on student choice and student competition reflects that. Btw, nurse profession in Sweden is commonly 3 years, which is common for hands on professions like welders, plumbers, painters, musicians, carpenters and so on. Engineering is commonly 4 years, similar to veterinarian. Its the difference between master degree and bachelor's degree. I do not think its a major leap that professions with master degree requirements is generally considered to be more desired, has generally a higher pay rate, and is generally fought over more harshly. As such, comparing two professions with master degree requirements makes more sense.
    - reitanqild 10y ago
      In Norway next to Sweden, nurse is three years "høgskole" after three years "videregående". Same goes for engineer (except "sivilingeniør" which is another two years on top of that). Welder or carpenter is two years of "videregående" and then 2 (or more?) years as apprentice. So Nurse or engineer: 6 years study. Welder, carpenter etc: 2 years study + 2 years as apprentice.

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vacri 10y ago

If it were a genuine attempt to maturely discuss gender issues in the workplace from a male point of view, the world would probably be okay with it. If it were a knee-jerk "what about the menz?" fuck-you, then it'd be shouted down. There are lots of books and magazines out there that maturely examine men's experiences from a man's point of view, and no-one is shrilly protesting them.

NTDF9 10y ago
>> If it were a genuine attempt to maturely discuss gender issues in the workplace from a male point of view, the world would probably be okay with it. This is genuine. Thanks!