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>I said "brokering service" rather than "broker" for a reason, as a shorthand for a broad class of services And what makes Airbnb a "brokering service"? Is it

by jasode 10y ago

>I said "brokering service" rather than "broker" for a reason, as a shorthand for a broad class of services And what makes Airbnb a "brokering service"? Is it the 3% fee collected upfront instead of commissions being billed monthly like Ebay? Therefore, if Airbnb collected money differently to avoid the label of being a brokering "service", would the outrage about discrimination really be avoided? I doubt it. >direct-by-owner rentals advertised through services that are more listing than brokering services, which do in fact discriminate on axes What would Airbnb have to change to meet that definition? To me, the homeowners have to create their own listings and upload their own photos. It's not like real estate agents who create listings in the proprietary and closed MLS system on behalf of clients. (Regardless of your answers, I'm going to ask some Airbnb hosts and see if interacting with Airbnb to them feels more like contracting with broker services or more like an listing an electronic classifieds ad. It's a fascinating psychological angle.)

dragonwriter 10y ago
> And what makes Airbnb a "brokering service"? The fact that they take a commission (rather than, e.g., a size-of-listing-based listing fee, the way newspaper classifieds would), handle rental reservations, cancellations, mediate refund requests, and act as a payment intermediary, etc., all seem to point to them being a person in the rental business providing rental services, rather than a mere listing venue like a newspaper classified or bulletin board. > Is it the 3% fee collected upfront instead of commissions being billed monthly like Ebay? No, I can't see that that would be in any way relevant. > Therefore, if Airbnb collected money differently to avoid the label of being a brokering "service", would the outrage about discrimination really be avoided? If they changed what they collected money for, sure, but that's not a scheduling thing, its what the basis of payment is and what services they are providing. > What would Airbnb have to change to meet that definition? As I see it, they'd need to act as a listing venue rather than a deeply-involved intermediary in the rental transaction. Their fundamental business model, IOW, would have to change.
- jasode 10y ago
  Ok, I think the logic as you've laid it out makes sense to you and I won't argue it but I will explain how other people view what a "broker" or "broker service" actually is: The core value-added function of a (traditional) rental broker is the matching of renter and landlord. For the renter, brokers recommend which apartments in which neighborhoods are appropriate. For landlords, brokers pre-screen for appropriate renters. With Airbnb, they leave this "matching" as a self-service exercise for both renters and landlords. The prospective renter has to manually browse the listings without the guidance of recommendations and the landlords get no benefit of a human intermediary filtering out inappropriate renters. In other words, Airbnb doesn't even do the main thing that brokers are supposed to do. You don't have to agree with the above but that's how a lot of people think about rental "broker services". >handle rental reservations, cancellations, mediate refund requests, and act as a payment intermediary, etc., For those who think of broker services in the traditional way, Airbnb is more of a "payment platform" that happens to specialize in rentals rather than a true brokering service. This is why going after the "broker service" angle would be a weak approach in changing homeowners' minds about discrimination.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > This is why going after the "broker service" angle would be a weak approach in changing homeowners' minds about discrimination. I'm not suggesting it as a way to change homeowner's minds, which isn't even something I'm interested in doing [0]. I'm interested in enforcing the existing law prohibiting discrimination. If hosts wish to discriminate, I'd prefer they'd be limited to doing so only in the limited circumstances and manners permitted by law, and not willy-nilly in defiance of the law. [0] Okay, its something I'm interested in doing, but its a longer-term, less-immediately-critical goal that's pretty much irrelevant to anything I've said about the issues in this thread, except in this footnote.
    - jasode 10y ago
      >I'm interested in enforcing the _existing law_ [...] I understand but your opinion is predicated on your particular reading of the "brokering services"[0] law you cited previously. That extensive enumeration of brokers/agents/salesman/employee is a person that does the matching work on behalf of the client. If other reasonable people don't think Airbnb's "self-service" approach is brokering, then the word "existing" in "existing law" doesn't apply. Likewise, if one downloads PDFs of legal forms from a website to sell a car or incorporate a business and fills out the form himeself, that website is not providing "attorney services" -- even though many lawyers might download the same PDF files and fill them out for their clients. (Self-service legal forms != attorney services) Persuading homeowners to not discriminate by convincing them that Airbnb is a real brokering service seems like too big of a mental hurdle to overcome. (No lawyers are issuing dire warnings to homeowners saying Airbnb is a "brokering service". No court rulings have made the headlines saying Airbnb is a brokering service. Etc) Therefore, they see no "existing law" that applies to them. [0](A) without the use in any manner of the sales or rental facilities or the sales or rental services of any real estate broker, agent, or salesman, or of such facilities or services of any person in the business of selling or renting dwellings, or of any employee or agent of any such broker, agent, salesman, or person and

by jasode 10y ago

dragonwriter 10y ago

> And what makes Airbnb a "brokering service"? The fact that they take a commission (rather than, e.g., a size-of-listing-based listing fee, the way newspaper classifieds would), handle rental reservations, cancellations, mediate refund requests, and act as a payment intermediary, etc., all seem to point to them being a person in the rental business providing rental services, rather than a mere listing venue like a newspaper classified or bulletin board. > Is it the 3% fee collected upfront instead of commissions being billed monthly like Ebay? No, I can't see that that would be in any way relevant. > Therefore, if Airbnb collected money differently to avoid the label of being a brokering "service", would the outrage about discrimination really be avoided? If they changed what they collected money for, sure, but that's not a scheduling thing, its what the basis of payment is and what services they are providing. > What would Airbnb have to change to meet that definition? As I see it, they'd need to act as a listing venue rather than a deeply-involved intermediary in the rental transaction. Their fundamental business model, IOW, would have to change.

jasode 10y ago
Ok, I think the logic as you've laid it out makes sense to you and I won't argue it but I will explain how other people view what a "broker" or "broker service" actually is: The core value-added function of a (traditional) rental broker is the matching of renter and landlord. For the renter, brokers recommend which apartments in which neighborhoods are appropriate. For landlords, brokers pre-screen for appropriate renters. With Airbnb, they leave this "matching" as a self-service exercise for both renters and landlords. The prospective renter has to manually browse the listings without the guidance of recommendations and the landlords get no benefit of a human intermediary filtering out inappropriate renters. In other words, Airbnb doesn't even do the main thing that brokers are supposed to do. You don't have to agree with the above but that's how a lot of people think about rental "broker services". >handle rental reservations, cancellations, mediate refund requests, and act as a payment intermediary, etc., For those who think of broker services in the traditional way, Airbnb is more of a "payment platform" that happens to specialize in rentals rather than a true brokering service. This is why going after the "broker service" angle would be a weak approach in changing homeowners' minds about discrimination.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > This is why going after the "broker service" angle would be a weak approach in changing homeowners' minds about discrimination. I'm not suggesting it as a way to change homeowner's minds, which isn't even something I'm interested in doing [0]. I'm interested in enforcing the existing law prohibiting discrimination. If hosts wish to discriminate, I'd prefer they'd be limited to doing so only in the limited circumstances and manners permitted by law, and not willy-nilly in defiance of the law. [0] Okay, its something I'm interested in doing, but its a longer-term, less-immediately-critical goal that's pretty much irrelevant to anything I've said about the issues in this thread, except in this footnote.
  - jasode 10y ago
    >I'm interested in enforcing the _existing law_ [...] I understand but your opinion is predicated on your particular reading of the "brokering services"[0] law you cited previously. That extensive enumeration of brokers/agents/salesman/employee is a person that does the matching work on behalf of the client. If other reasonable people don't think Airbnb's "self-service" approach is brokering, then the word "existing" in "existing law" doesn't apply. Likewise, if one downloads PDFs of legal forms from a website to sell a car or incorporate a business and fills out the form himeself, that website is not providing "attorney services" -- even though many lawyers might download the same PDF files and fill them out for their clients. (Self-service legal forms != attorney services) Persuading homeowners to not discriminate by convincing them that Airbnb is a real brokering service seems like too big of a mental hurdle to overcome. (No lawyers are issuing dire warnings to homeowners saying Airbnb is a "brokering service". No court rulings have made the headlines saying Airbnb is a brokering service. Etc) Therefore, they see no "existing law" that applies to them. [0](A) without the use in any manner of the sales or rental facilities or the sales or rental services of any real estate broker, agent, or salesman, or of such facilities or services of any person in the business of selling or renting dwellings, or of any employee or agent of any such broker, agent, salesman, or person and