4 ms·

>But its not legal to use a brokering service to arrange the rental if you discriminate, so there goes AirBnB for that use. Well, since Airbnb has been around

by jasode 10y ago

>But its not legal to use a brokering service to arrange the rental if you discriminate, so there goes AirBnB for that use. Well, since Airbnb has been around for 8 years and no states' attorney generals nor courts have ruled Airbnb to definitively be a "broker", _why_ would a homeowner think she's breaking any anti-discrimination laws when screening prospective renters for her spare bedroom? I don't know about Airbnb's status in other countries but as far as the USA goes, that's the current situation. (There's one lawsuit filed by a property management in NYC to reclassify Airbnb as a "broker" but that's working its way through the court system and unresolved.) Also, let's do a thought experiment. Let's say Airbnb changes some things to avoid the "broker" label -- or -- the states definitively rule that they don't meet the definition of "broker". If so, this outcome still wouldn't be realistic: "Well, Ms Smith's loft discriminates against black people but we're all ok with it now because Airbnb got a favorable ruling that they are not a broker." Attacking the "broker" angle is a red herring. Even if Airbnb loses the broker reclassification, another service that let people discriminate on exactly who stays in their spare bedroom would fill the void. The underlying discrimination remains.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> since Airbnb has been around for 8 years and no states' attorney generals nor courts have ruled Airbnb to definitively be a "broker" I said "brokering service" rather than "broker" for a reason, as a shorthand for a broad class of services (the exclusion from the fair housing exemption extends to any use of rental or sales services of a broker, agent, or any person in the business or rental or sales; this is much broader than classification as a "broker" specifically.) > If so, this outcome still wouldn't be realistic: "Well, Ms Smith's loft discriminates against black people but we're all ok with it now because Airbnb collects money differently therefore they are no longer a broker." It would be perfectly realistic, and is, in fact, the status of lots of small direct-by-owner rentals advertised through services that are more listing than brokering services, which do in fact discriminate on axes that would otherwise be prohibited. Units that do not use brokering services and fit within the size and other requirements of the fair housing exemption in federal law are (under federal law) perfectly legal. (If they don't fall into a state-law exemption, which are often narrower, they may run afoul of state fair housing laws, though.)
- jasode 10y ago
  >I said "brokering service" rather than "broker" for a reason, as a shorthand for a broad class of services And what makes Airbnb a "brokering service"? Is it the 3% fee collected upfront instead of commissions being billed monthly like Ebay? Therefore, if Airbnb collected money differently to avoid the label of being a brokering "service", would the outrage about discrimination really be avoided? I doubt it. >direct-by-owner rentals advertised through services that are more listing than brokering services, which do in fact discriminate on axes What would Airbnb have to change to meet that definition? To me, the homeowners have to create their own listings and upload their own photos. It's not like real estate agents who create listings in the proprietary and closed MLS system on behalf of clients. (Regardless of your answers, I'm going to ask some Airbnb hosts and see if interacting with Airbnb to them feels more like contracting with broker services or more like an listing an electronic classifieds ad. It's a fascinating psychological angle.)
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > And what makes Airbnb a "brokering service"? The fact that they take a commission (rather than, e.g., a size-of-listing-based listing fee, the way newspaper classifieds would), handle rental reservations, cancellations, mediate refund requests, and act as a payment intermediary, etc., all seem to point to them being a person in the rental business providing rental services, rather than a mere listing venue like a newspaper classified or bulletin board. > Is it the 3% fee collected upfront instead of commissions being billed monthly like Ebay? No, I can't see that that would be in any way relevant. > Therefore, if Airbnb collected money differently to avoid the label of being a brokering "service", would the outrage about discrimination really be avoided? If they changed what they collected money for, sure, but that's not a scheduling thing, its what the basis of payment is and what services they are providing. > What would Airbnb have to change to meet that definition? As I see it, they'd need to act as a listing venue rather than a deeply-involved intermediary in the rental transaction. Their fundamental business model, IOW, would have to change.
    - jasode 10y ago

by jasode 10y ago

dragonwriter 10y ago

> since Airbnb has been around for 8 years and no states' attorney generals nor courts have ruled Airbnb to definitively be a "broker" I said "brokering service" rather than "broker" for a reason, as a shorthand for a broad class of services (the exclusion from the fair housing exemption extends to any use of rental or sales services of a broker, agent, or any person in the business or rental or sales; this is much broader than classification as a "broker" specifically.) > If so, this outcome still wouldn't be realistic: "Well, Ms Smith's loft discriminates against black people but we're all ok with it now because Airbnb collects money differently therefore they are no longer a broker." It would be perfectly realistic, and is, in fact, the status of lots of small direct-by-owner rentals advertised through services that are more listing than brokering services, which do in fact discriminate on axes that would otherwise be prohibited. Units that do not use brokering services and fit within the size and other requirements of the fair housing exemption in federal law are (under federal law) perfectly legal. (If they don't fall into a state-law exemption, which are often narrower, they may run afoul of state fair housing laws, though.)

jasode 10y ago
>I said "brokering service" rather than "broker" for a reason, as a shorthand for a broad class of services And what makes Airbnb a "brokering service"? Is it the 3% fee collected upfront instead of commissions being billed monthly like Ebay? Therefore, if Airbnb collected money differently to avoid the label of being a brokering "service", would the outrage about discrimination really be avoided? I doubt it. >direct-by-owner rentals advertised through services that are more listing than brokering services, which do in fact discriminate on axes What would Airbnb have to change to meet that definition? To me, the homeowners have to create their own listings and upload their own photos. It's not like real estate agents who create listings in the proprietary and closed MLS system on behalf of clients. (Regardless of your answers, I'm going to ask some Airbnb hosts and see if interacting with Airbnb to them feels more like contracting with broker services or more like an listing an electronic classifieds ad. It's a fascinating psychological angle.)
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > And what makes Airbnb a "brokering service"? The fact that they take a commission (rather than, e.g., a size-of-listing-based listing fee, the way newspaper classifieds would), handle rental reservations, cancellations, mediate refund requests, and act as a payment intermediary, etc., all seem to point to them being a person in the rental business providing rental services, rather than a mere listing venue like a newspaper classified or bulletin board. > Is it the 3% fee collected upfront instead of commissions being billed monthly like Ebay? No, I can't see that that would be in any way relevant. > Therefore, if Airbnb collected money differently to avoid the label of being a brokering "service", would the outrage about discrimination really be avoided? If they changed what they collected money for, sure, but that's not a scheduling thing, its what the basis of payment is and what services they are providing. > What would Airbnb have to change to meet that definition? As I see it, they'd need to act as a listing venue rather than a deeply-involved intermediary in the rental transaction. Their fundamental business model, IOW, would have to change.
  - jasode 10y ago