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I think Airbnb would argue that it's not their place to enforce these laws; and that if individual hosts are violating them, the government should go after them

by exelius 10y ago

I think Airbnb would argue that it's not their place to enforce these laws; and that if individual hosts are violating them, the government should go after them. It's a typical problem of the "sharing" economy. I'm not sure the courts will agree with them, but their strategy has been similar to Uber's in that they come in, break the law (or at the very least operate in a legal grey area), then get so big that traditional regulatory systems have no way to deal with them.

RodericDay 10y ago
I could agree with this. But, since the government will have to do all this inspection, I guess you agree that they will have to levy a tax on AirBnB to pay for it?
- exelius 10y ago
  I doubt Airbnb would agree with that -- since it would make their rentals much less attractive when compared to hotels (which have taxes around 15-20% in most big cities).
  - cmurf 10y ago
    Ok then their model succeeds mainly on the basis that it's freeloading by being an exception to rules that apply to hotels. They're cheaper because they're not doing pretty much any of the things hotels are required to do, not just limited to taxes, but including the various health inspection regimes that states require for places of public accommodation including hotels. So yeah, you don't have to clean as well as a hotel if you don't want, you don't have to pay the taxes as a hotel or even a regular long term rental unit if you can get away with it (thinking IRS will consider a portion of your house converted into business property and thus subject to business property gains tax when you sell the house, but not limited to this), you don't have to follow or even give notice that you don't follow ADA, on and on, because AirBnB doesn't verify any of this and it's claimed it's not their responsibility to do so; but they also don't support even a licensing program by municipalities and rental history reporting so that these municipalities could do their own verifications. Basically if you even the playing field across the board between an AirBnB and hotel, you end up with something like an actual Bed & Breakfast (although typically without breakfast but often with access to a kitchen). All things actually being equal, even price per square foot, I'd probably pick an AirBnB, but I actively avoid it whenever possible because I think their success mainly constitutes free loading (and enabling it by property owners)
    - exelius 10y ago
      I agree with you -- Uber succeeded for many of the same reasons. They found a weak, fragmented, and hyper localized regulatory environment (very similar to that of hotels) that they could overwhelm with global scale after building up in a few "friendly" markets. I suspect Google was trying to do the same with Google Fiber, but found the opposition (in the form of AT&T / Verizon / Comcast / TWC / Charter / Cox) was too organized and entrenched.
      - cmurf 10y ago
        I agree with the idea that there are inefficiencies, unfairnesses, externalities in the "legit" way of operating short term rentals. But there are many hotels without 24/7 customer service, where the front desk is closed after 10pm and you get to call a number with urgent needs (like plumbing failures or whatever), etc. And they are cheaper than typical hotels, as are typical bed and breakfasts as compared to the boutique b&b's. So it's completely fair to be critical of all of these inefficiencies, but I think it's wrong to suggest AirBnB has some particular innovation other than their app connection buyer and seller, and themselves evading and enabling others to evade, the level playing field. Such as it is.
        exelius 10y ago
        I think we're saying the same thing. :) I don't feel Airbnb is particularly innovative on the technology side; they're just exploiting a combination of inefficiencies in government regulatory mechanisms and the naivete of inexperienced landlords. There are plenty of horror stories about houses being trashed, etc. that professional landlords will cover with insurance (and that add to the price of a rental). By not being experienced enough to cover themselves, many renters expose themselves to a huge amount of risk. As the horror stories propagate, they will look to reduce their risk in other ways such as discriminating against renters that they have pre-existing biases toward. Given the amateur nature of their landlords, I don't see a real way for Airbnb to stop this type of discrimination other than by providing insurance coverage -- which, of course, would significantly raise the prices of Airbnb rentals and likely force many hosts who are already operating illegally (i.e. against the terms of their leases) from the market. No insurance company in the world would be willing to underwrite a policy for damages that are already prohibited under an existing contract.
- stcredzero 10y ago
  Why wouldn't the government just require AirBnB to provide transaction data in response to a report of discrimination?
stcredzero 10y ago
I think Airbnb would argue that it's not their place to enforce these laws; and that if individual hosts are violating them, the government should go after them. There's a world of difference between a single family letting their guest room, the runner of a "Hacker Hostel" with 12 bunks, and someone who rents 4 different properties on AirBnB but lives in another house. The laws should be formulated such that the rules for hotels also apply to the 3rd case. Such laws should definitely not apply to the 1st case. A "Hacker Hostel" is also something of an interest group, so I'm not sure what applies there.

by exelius 10y ago

RodericDay 10y ago

I could agree with this. But, since the government will have to do all this inspection, I guess you agree that they will have to levy a tax on AirBnB to pay for it?

exelius 10y ago
I doubt Airbnb would agree with that -- since it would make their rentals much less attractive when compared to hotels (which have taxes around 15-20% in most big cities).
- cmurf 10y ago
  Ok then their model succeeds mainly on the basis that it's freeloading by being an exception to rules that apply to hotels. They're cheaper because they're not doing pretty much any of the things hotels are required to do, not just limited to taxes, but including the various health inspection regimes that states require for places of public accommodation including hotels. So yeah, you don't have to clean as well as a hotel if you don't want, you don't have to pay the taxes as a hotel or even a regular long term rental unit if you can get away with it (thinking IRS will consider a portion of your house converted into business property and thus subject to business property gains tax when you sell the house, but not limited to this), you don't have to follow or even give notice that you don't follow ADA, on and on, because AirBnB doesn't verify any of this and it's claimed it's not their responsibility to do so; but they also don't support even a licensing program by municipalities and rental history reporting so that these municipalities could do their own verifications. Basically if you even the playing field across the board between an AirBnB and hotel, you end up with something like an actual Bed & Breakfast (although typically without breakfast but often with access to a kitchen). All things actually being equal, even price per square foot, I'd probably pick an AirBnB, but I actively avoid it whenever possible because I think their success mainly constitutes free loading (and enabling it by property owners)
  - exelius 10y ago
    I agree with you -- Uber succeeded for many of the same reasons. They found a weak, fragmented, and hyper localized regulatory environment (very similar to that of hotels) that they could overwhelm with global scale after building up in a few "friendly" markets. I suspect Google was trying to do the same with Google Fiber, but found the opposition (in the form of AT&T / Verizon / Comcast / TWC / Charter / Cox) was too organized and entrenched.
    - cmurf 10y ago
      I agree with the idea that there are inefficiencies, unfairnesses, externalities in the "legit" way of operating short term rentals. But there are many hotels without 24/7 customer service, where the front desk is closed after 10pm and you get to call a number with urgent needs (like plumbing failures or whatever), etc. And they are cheaper than typical hotels, as are typical bed and breakfasts as compared to the boutique b&b's. So it's completely fair to be critical of all of these inefficiencies, but I think it's wrong to suggest AirBnB has some particular innovation other than their app connection buyer and seller, and themselves evading and enabling others to evade, the level playing field. Such as it is.
      - exelius 10y ago
        I think we're saying the same thing. :) I don't feel Airbnb is particularly innovative on the technology side; they're just exploiting a combination of inefficiencies in government regulatory mechanisms and the naivete of inexperienced landlords. There are plenty of horror stories about houses being trashed, etc. that professional landlords will cover with insurance (and that add to the price of a rental). By not being experienced enough to cover themselves, many renters expose themselves to a huge amount of risk. As the horror stories propagate, they will look to reduce their risk in other ways such as discriminating against renters that they have pre-existing biases toward. Given the amateur nature of their landlords, I don't see a real way for Airbnb to stop this type of discrimination other than by providing insurance coverage -- which, of course, would significantly raise the prices of Airbnb rentals and likely force many hosts who are already operating illegally (i.e. against the terms of their leases) from the market. No insurance company in the world would be willing to underwrite a policy for damages that are already prohibited under an existing contract.
stcredzero 10y ago
Why wouldn't the government just require AirBnB to provide transaction data in response to a report of discrimination?

stcredzero 10y ago

I think Airbnb would argue that it's not their place to enforce these laws; and that if individual hosts are violating them, the government should go after them. There's a world of difference between a single family letting their guest room, the runner of a "Hacker Hostel" with 12 bunks, and someone who rents 4 different properties on AirBnB but lives in another house. The laws should be formulated such that the rules for hotels also apply to the 3rd case. Such laws should definitely not apply to the 1st case. A "Hacker Hostel" is also something of an interest group, so I'm not sure what applies there.