5 ms·

>Airbnb said it would also accelerate the use of instant bookings, which lets renters book places immediately without host approval. Maybe I'm naive but it see

by jasode 10y ago

>Airbnb said it would also accelerate the use of instant bookings, which lets renters book places immediately without host approval. Maybe I'm naive but it seems like that policy would be perceived by hosts as extremely hostile. Homeowners have both a financial and emotional vested interest in their homes so letting strangers book it without a cursory check isn't going to work. Having no checks would work for real estate holders who aren't emotionally attached to their homes but not homeowners who live in the same house they rent. Even if it's irrational and discriminatory, homeowners want to maintain some semblance of control over who stays at their home. It's the homeowner who has to pay for damages/misbehavior -- whether directly or by home insurance deductibles and higher premiums. (As I understand it, AirBnb's coverage guarantee only kicks in after the homeowner exhausts his personal insurance.) Does anyone know the bulk of AirBnb's business revenue? Is it homeowners renting out a spare bedroom? Or is it people renting out non-owner occupied beach houses and lofts? EDIT ADD: Every time an AirBnb thread about racism comes up, many commenters are confused or ignorant about what the law actually says. To copypaste a previous comment: Those anti-discrimination laws don't apply to hosts' private homes or bedrooms.[1] Paraphrase of law: "All persons shall be entitled ..., and accommodations of any place of public accommodation,..., without discrimination ... other than ... a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent ... which is actually occupied by the proprietor ... as his residence" In other words, if a homeowner has a spare bedroom across the hall from her 13-year-old son's room, and doesn't want to rent to transgender, black, or 65-year-old guests, it is legal for her to discriminate on those attributes. On the other hand, if the AirBnb host is renting out a non-owner-occupied beach house, the discrimination laws would apply. [1]https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000a https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000a:

ovis 10y ago
What if there was a reputation threshold for a traveller to make an instant booking? Of course it's still not immune to racism or sexism, but it seems that it would provide a decent buffer against it.
- pooper 10y ago
  Nope. I would not ever rent a room with instant booking unless Airbnb signs a blank check for any damages by the guest (which it of course won't)
  - mrgordon 10y ago
    They have insurance either way. I've had nothing but good experiences but to each their own.
  - huac 10y ago
    Do you think the $1M insurance policy isn't enough?
    - pooper 10y ago
      Please take a look https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Airbnb-1-million-host-guarantee-a-marketing-gimmick https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Airbnb-1-million-host-guarantee... The Airbnb Host Guarantee is a total fraud. I looked into the abyss of worst case predatory corporate behavior when I filed my claim. I am a big Airbnb fan, both as a host in my New York aparment and as a guest. But when I had my first bad experience with a guest that damaged property (floor, walls) and stole a whole set of expensive cosmetics from a friend that were stored in my bathroom, Airbnb behaved terribly. They basically dragged out the process over a month, demanding more and more “evidence” (a police report, exact list of missing items, photos of damage, quotes from handyman and Amazon list price links were insufficient). They continuously set 48 h “deadlines” for responses nearly every time I got a message, and said if I miss them the case gets closed. After jumping through all the hoops, they told me they decided to close the case anyway. This was a shocking experience - I read the terms and of course, there are certain things I didn’t provide (mostly the purchasing receipts for the stolen goods, since I don’t keep those). But the pictures with damages and police report got simply ignored by them. This was “only” about $3,000, so it’s not worth to hire a lawyer and spend more time on this. The Airbnb Host Guarantee is definitely a fraud, and Airbnb should be absolutely ashamed for their deceptive advertising. Here are some more details in case you are interested: * I had trouble with the guest already when they stayed in my apartment, and complained with Airbnb. Airbnb reviewed the case and had the guest actually pay for additional people they brought over to live there. The Airbnb team responsible for handling problems with the guest while staying there was great. * After the guests left, we assessed the room and saw all the damage, and realized they had stolen lots of valuable items from the bathroom. I immediately informed Airbnb. They passed the case on to another guy called “Reiko”, and that’s where nightmare started. Some official correspondence from Airbnb’s Reiko: “If a host requests compensation through the Host Guarantee program, Airbnb will review the damages to determine if the guest is responsible and if the host qualifies for reimbursement under our terms:www.airbnb.com/terms If the host qualifies for compensation, Airbnb will take measures to recoup those funds from the guest.” > So, Reiko told me basically that if the guest doesn’t pay, I don’t get paid. Of course the guest doesn’t pay, he was a crook who stole my stuff. After 1 months of back and forth, police involvement, handyman reviews and spending hours on this stupid case following Reiko’s instruction, he send me this: “Thank you for getting in touch with us. We understand that this may have been a difficult and frustrating process.Unfortunately, we did not receive a response from you within 48 hours of our last email, sent on August 7th, as was specifically requested. Therefore, your claim was closed.” >> The Airbnb host Guarantee states explicitly that a host has 60 days time to SUBMIT the request. I submitted within 24 hours on July 30th, and then Reiko dragged the process out over a month back and forth. I freaked out given this out-of-control statement and asked Reiko what this is all about. I received this cookie cutter response: “Thank you so much for following up, I definitely understand how frustrating all of this must be for you. Whenever a situation like this arises, we advocate for an amicable solution. As a neutral third-party not present during the reservation, we must make a fair decision based on documentation and communication from both host and guest. Following a full review of all documentation and communication in this case, we reached what we believe to be a fair compromise for both parties. As you may already know, our policies state that we have the final say in any dispute to which we are called upon to mediate. As such, the decision reached in this case is final and cannot be overturned.“ WOW. Basically, there is no Host Guarantee. Airbnb simply tries to convince the fraudulent guest to pay. If they don’t pay, you (I) are screwed. Airbnb is not going to pay a dime. This is in clear violation of their own stated terms. It says: “We’re committed to creating a safe and trusted community around the world. Though property damage is rare, we understand you may need protection. The Host Guarantee will reimburse eligible hosts for damages up to $1,000,000.” >> What it doesn’t mention is that it’s the guest’s responsibility to pay this $1,000,000. It also states: Useful documentation and information that will help process your payment request as quickly as possible include: photographs of the damage being claimed a police report for any damage that is over $300 USD receipts or some alternative evidence of the accurate fair market value or report cost proof of ownership any other documentation that you feel will be helpful to processing your request >> We delivered all of this, but it didn’t help. We didn’t see a single dime. The bottom line: Either Reiko is a liar and processed our case in the wrong way, or the Host Guarantee is a fraud. I am pretty sure I would win this in court; but Reiko and Airbnb unfortunately know that it’s not worth my time and money given the small (but still significant) amount of $3,000. My guess is Airbnb simply assesses your earnings and comes up with a certain limit below that they will just screw you over and say “goodbye, no host guarantee for you” in clear violation with their own terms, since they know you can’t go to court. I at least wanted to let my friend on Quora know. Very sad and disillusioned with the “sharing economy”. This is not a friendly startup, but worst case predatory corporate behavior. If you have gone through the same thing, maybe we can file a class action lawsuit.
gambiting 10y ago
But that's not a new thing - I definitely booked places with AirBnB through their "instant" feature more than a year ago. It's clearly advertised as such on selected places, and obviously the home owner has to agree to that system, but it meant that I knew where I was sleeping that night, without having to wait for the host to approve me.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> In other words, if a homeowner has a spare bedroom across the hall from her 13-year-old son's room, and doesn't want to rent to transgender, black, or 65-year-old guests, it is legal for her to discriminate on those attributes. But its not legal to use a brokering service to arrange the rental if you discriminate, so there goes AirBnB for that use.
- jasode 10y ago
  >But its not legal to use a brokering service to arrange the rental if you discriminate, so there goes AirBnB for that use. Well, since Airbnb has been around for 8 years and no states' attorney generals nor courts have ruled Airbnb to definitively be a "broker", _why_ would a homeowner think she's breaking any anti-discrimination laws when screening prospective renters for her spare bedroom? I don't know about Airbnb's status in other countries but as far as the USA goes, that's the current situation. (There's one lawsuit filed by a property management in NYC to reclassify Airbnb as a "broker" but that's working its way through the court system and unresolved.) Also, let's do a thought experiment. Let's say Airbnb changes some things to avoid the "broker" label -- or -- the states definitively rule that they don't meet the definition of "broker". If so, this outcome still wouldn't be realistic: "Well, Ms Smith's loft discriminates against black people but we're all ok with it now because Airbnb got a favorable ruling that they are not a broker." Attacking the "broker" angle is a red herring. Even if Airbnb loses the broker reclassification, another service that let people discriminate on exactly who stays in their spare bedroom would fill the void. The underlying discrimination remains.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > since Airbnb has been around for 8 years and no states' attorney generals nor courts have ruled Airbnb to definitively be a "broker" I said "brokering service" rather than "broker" for a reason, as a shorthand for a broad class of services (the exclusion from the fair housing exemption extends to any use of rental or sales services of a broker, agent, or any person in the business or rental or sales; this is much broader than classification as a "broker" specifically.) > If so, this outcome still wouldn't be realistic: "Well, Ms Smith's loft discriminates against black people but we're all ok with it now because Airbnb collects money differently therefore they are no longer a broker." It would be perfectly realistic, and is, in fact, the status of lots of small direct-by-owner rentals advertised through services that are more listing than brokering services, which do in fact discriminate on axes that would otherwise be prohibited. Units that do not use brokering services and fit within the size and other requirements of the fair housing exemption in federal law are (under federal law) perfectly legal. (If they don't fall into a state-law exemption, which are often narrower, they may run afoul of state fair housing laws, though.)
cloudjacker 10y ago
> On the other hand, if the AirBnb host is renting out a non-owner-occupied beach house, the discrimination laws would apply. The particular nuance that explains exactly why AirBnB is forcing its users to agree to a new contract. Renters will be violating their AirBnB agreement if they are trying to rely on an exemption from discrimination law. Easy
tim333 10y ago
Instant bookings have been going for a while and it's basically a business decision for the host as to whether to accept them. More hassle and risk but more bookings. They probably appeal more to people who are doing airbnb as a business rather than letting their home for a week.

by jasode 10y ago

ovis 10y ago

What if there was a reputation threshold for a traveller to make an instant booking? Of course it's still not immune to racism or sexism, but it seems that it would provide a decent buffer against it.

pooper 10y ago
Nope. I would not ever rent a room with instant booking unless Airbnb signs a blank check for any damages by the guest (which it of course won't)
- mrgordon 10y ago
  They have insurance either way. I've had nothing but good experiences but to each their own.
- huac 10y ago
  Do you think the $1M insurance policy isn't enough?
  - pooper 10y ago
    Please take a look https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Airbnb-1-million-host-guarantee-a-marketing-gimmick https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Airbnb-1-million-host-guarantee... The Airbnb Host Guarantee is a total fraud. I looked into the abyss of worst case predatory corporate behavior when I filed my claim. I am a big Airbnb fan, both as a host in my New York aparment and as a guest. But when I had my first bad experience with a guest that damaged property (floor, walls) and stole a whole set of expensive cosmetics from a friend that were stored in my bathroom, Airbnb behaved terribly. They basically dragged out the process over a month, demanding more and more “evidence” (a police report, exact list of missing items, photos of damage, quotes from handyman and Amazon list price links were insufficient). They continuously set 48 h “deadlines” for responses nearly every time I got a message, and said if I miss them the case gets closed. After jumping through all the hoops, they told me they decided to close the case anyway. This was a shocking experience - I read the terms and of course, there are certain things I didn’t provide (mostly the purchasing receipts for the stolen goods, since I don’t keep those). But the pictures with damages and police report got simply ignored by them. This was “only” about $3,000, so it’s not worth to hire a lawyer and spend more time on this. The Airbnb Host Guarantee is definitely a fraud, and Airbnb should be absolutely ashamed for their deceptive advertising. Here are some more details in case you are interested: * I had trouble with the guest already when they stayed in my apartment, and complained with Airbnb. Airbnb reviewed the case and had the guest actually pay for additional people they brought over to live there. The Airbnb team responsible for handling problems with the guest while staying there was great. * After the guests left, we assessed the room and saw all the damage, and realized they had stolen lots of valuable items from the bathroom. I immediately informed Airbnb. They passed the case on to another guy called “Reiko”, and that’s where nightmare started. Some official correspondence from Airbnb’s Reiko: “If a host requests compensation through the Host Guarantee program, Airbnb will review the damages to determine if the guest is responsible and if the host qualifies for reimbursement under our terms:www.airbnb.com/terms If the host qualifies for compensation, Airbnb will take measures to recoup those funds from the guest.” > So, Reiko told me basically that if the guest doesn’t pay, I don’t get paid. Of course the guest doesn’t pay, he was a crook who stole my stuff. After 1 months of back and forth, police involvement, handyman reviews and spending hours on this stupid case following Reiko’s instruction, he send me this: “Thank you for getting in touch with us. We understand that this may have been a difficult and frustrating process.Unfortunately, we did not receive a response from you within 48 hours of our last email, sent on August 7th, as was specifically requested. Therefore, your claim was closed.” >> The Airbnb host Guarantee states explicitly that a host has 60 days time to SUBMIT the request. I submitted within 24 hours on July 30th, and then Reiko dragged the process out over a month back and forth. I freaked out given this out-of-control statement and asked Reiko what this is all about. I received this cookie cutter response: “Thank you so much for following up, I definitely understand how frustrating all of this must be for you. Whenever a situation like this arises, we advocate for an amicable solution. As a neutral third-party not present during the reservation, we must make a fair decision based on documentation and communication from both host and guest. Following a full review of all documentation and communication in this case, we reached what we believe to be a fair compromise for both parties. As you may already know, our policies state that we have the final say in any dispute to which we are called upon to mediate. As such, the decision reached in this case is final and cannot be overturned.“ WOW. Basically, there is no Host Guarantee. Airbnb simply tries to convince the fraudulent guest to pay. If they don’t pay, you (I) are screwed. Airbnb is not going to pay a dime. This is in clear violation of their own stated terms. It says: “We’re committed to creating a safe and trusted community around the world. Though property damage is rare, we understand you may need protection. The Host Guarantee will reimburse eligible hosts for damages up to $1,000,000.” >> What it doesn’t mention is that it’s the guest’s responsibility to pay this $1,000,000. It also states: Useful documentation and information that will help process your payment request as quickly as possible include: photographs of the damage being claimed a police report for any damage that is over $300 USD receipts or some alternative evidence of the accurate fair market value or report cost proof of ownership any other documentation that you feel will be helpful to processing your request >> We delivered all of this, but it didn’t help. We didn’t see a single dime. The bottom line: Either Reiko is a liar and processed our case in the wrong way, or the Host Guarantee is a fraud. I am pretty sure I would win this in court; but Reiko and Airbnb unfortunately know that it’s not worth my time and money given the small (but still significant) amount of $3,000. My guess is Airbnb simply assesses your earnings and comes up with a certain limit below that they will just screw you over and say “goodbye, no host guarantee for you” in clear violation with their own terms, since they know you can’t go to court. I at least wanted to let my friend on Quora know. Very sad and disillusioned with the “sharing economy”. This is not a friendly startup, but worst case predatory corporate behavior. If you have gone through the same thing, maybe we can file a class action lawsuit.

gambiting 10y ago

But that's not a new thing - I definitely booked places with AirBnB through their "instant" feature more than a year ago. It's clearly advertised as such on selected places, and obviously the home owner has to agree to that system, but it meant that I knew where I was sleeping that night, without having to wait for the host to approve me.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> In other words, if a homeowner has a spare bedroom across the hall from her 13-year-old son's room, and doesn't want to rent to transgender, black, or 65-year-old guests, it is legal for her to discriminate on those attributes. But its not legal to use a brokering service to arrange the rental if you discriminate, so there goes AirBnB for that use.

jasode 10y ago
>But its not legal to use a brokering service to arrange the rental if you discriminate, so there goes AirBnB for that use. Well, since Airbnb has been around for 8 years and no states' attorney generals nor courts have ruled Airbnb to definitively be a "broker", _why_ would a homeowner think she's breaking any anti-discrimination laws when screening prospective renters for her spare bedroom? I don't know about Airbnb's status in other countries but as far as the USA goes, that's the current situation. (There's one lawsuit filed by a property management in NYC to reclassify Airbnb as a "broker" but that's working its way through the court system and unresolved.) Also, let's do a thought experiment. Let's say Airbnb changes some things to avoid the "broker" label -- or -- the states definitively rule that they don't meet the definition of "broker". If so, this outcome still wouldn't be realistic: "Well, Ms Smith's loft discriminates against black people but we're all ok with it now because Airbnb got a favorable ruling that they are not a broker." Attacking the "broker" angle is a red herring. Even if Airbnb loses the broker reclassification, another service that let people discriminate on exactly who stays in their spare bedroom would fill the void. The underlying discrimination remains.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > since Airbnb has been around for 8 years and no states' attorney generals nor courts have ruled Airbnb to definitively be a "broker" I said "brokering service" rather than "broker" for a reason, as a shorthand for a broad class of services (the exclusion from the fair housing exemption extends to any use of rental or sales services of a broker, agent, or any person in the business or rental or sales; this is much broader than classification as a "broker" specifically.) > If so, this outcome still wouldn't be realistic: "Well, Ms Smith's loft discriminates against black people but we're all ok with it now because Airbnb collects money differently therefore they are no longer a broker." It would be perfectly realistic, and is, in fact, the status of lots of small direct-by-owner rentals advertised through services that are more listing than brokering services, which do in fact discriminate on axes that would otherwise be prohibited. Units that do not use brokering services and fit within the size and other requirements of the fair housing exemption in federal law are (under federal law) perfectly legal. (If they don't fall into a state-law exemption, which are often narrower, they may run afoul of state fair housing laws, though.)

cloudjacker 10y ago

> On the other hand, if the AirBnb host is renting out a non-owner-occupied beach house, the discrimination laws would apply. The particular nuance that explains exactly why AirBnB is forcing its users to agree to a new contract. Renters will be violating their AirBnB agreement if they are trying to rely on an exemption from discrimination law. Easy

tim333 10y ago

Instant bookings have been going for a while and it's basically a business decision for the host as to whether to accept them. More hassle and risk but more bookings. They probably appeal more to people who are doing airbnb as a business rather than letting their home for a week.