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Because: - programmers never make copy and paste errors in other languages - programmers never reverse a plus and minus sign in other languages - programmers

Because: - programmers never make copy and paste errors in other languages - programmers never reverse a plus and minus sign in other languages - programmers never break things with a last minute change - there are never errors due to the size of code bases Oh, right. Nearly all of those errors happen no matter what language you are using. Because they are humans giving instructions to a computer, who just does what the human says. (Ok, the version control complaint might be better handled by merging in git or other DVCS. And there are troubles when people give you a csv where a field is the text 1e24 and excel turns it into a number because you told it to be magic when importing, rather than specifying that column was text) Edited to add: the focus of that article is on accounting. Double entry accounting was created to make you input everything twice to help ensure you are doing the correct thing. You mess up one of the two items and stuff doesn't balance. Modern accounting software automatically creates the second entry, so you have no idea whether you did something wrong. That's the real issue. We came up with an accounting system that is slower to help make sure you did everything correctly, then we automated it so you only have to input one entry so accounting is faster and all of a sudden, we are surprised that more mistakes are made!

baldfat 10y ago
Your missing the point PEOPLE make mistakes. Where will you see the mistakes in Excel or a program. In Excel it is or close to impossible to see the steps someone did to get to the output. In programming you can see every single step and have version control. > Because: > - programmers never make copy and paste errors in other languages But they are discover-able and you can audit them and then fix them > - programmers never reverse a plus and minus sign in other languages But they are discover-able and you can audit them and then fix them > - programmers never break things with a last minute change Version control! > - there are never errors due to the size of code bases Yes this one is just STUPID
- kbenson 10y ago
  TL;DR - Excel is just a really accessible programming language, and as such it's used by a lot of amateurs. Like Perl in the 90's, the ease of getting started means a lot of people can use it, but the average quality of their code is abysmal, since the average level of experience is very low. That doesn't mean the tool itself is necessarily bad. - Did you watch the Spolsky video? I only ask because this is all child comments from a top level comment about a Martin Shkreli video, and since I watched that first, you might have as well and not gotten to the original video. The way Joel suggests using Excel is very like how developers program when using good practices. Always name ranges and cells before using them. Never use numbers directly in formulas (unless obvious, like 365), use the named cell/range you set up. Use tables when you want tabular data so you are prevented from accidentally using the wrong formula for portions of ranges. Use the included named formatting themes for cells that are meant to be user editable, and those that are computed. I watched the video and very quickly came to the conclusion that Excel is an IDE+Interpreter, like what people refer to when talking about Smalltalk (I assume, I've never actually used Smalltalk). The other thought I had is that it's probably the closest we've ever gotten to what people mean when they describe a visual programming language that just about anyone can use. Predictably, we often see the counterarguments to a system like that exhibited in Excel spreadsheets, which is poorly architected and designed spaghetti-code from people that don't have enough experience to know any better because they are amateurs. Copy and paste errors look far more discoverable when you use R1C1 mode, and look to be outright prevented in a lot of cases when using tables. Version control might be a good argument if it actually applied. Excel is a language, and I don't see any special version control baked into other languages programmers often use. It sits on top of them, and I don't see any reason why it couldn't sit on top of Excel as well. Export to a format that is version control friendly (perhaps with the help of an extra tool) and commit to VCS. Want to make a change? Check out the spreadsheet, convert as needed, and start working. Problem solved. Really, I came away with a much clearer picture of what Excel specifically is after the Spolsky talk, and it probably wasn't even that advanced. What it did do was give a crash course for programmers that let you make the clear associations to what you do in other languages, so there was communication going on at a few levels.
  - mark-r 10y ago
    Version control is about more than just holding different versions and being able to restore them. It makes it so much easier to discover what changed between one version and another. Excel files are too opaque for that.
    - kbenson 10y ago
      I'm not sure how they are too opaque for that. If you are converting into an intermediary format, and saving that, depending on the format, it may even be easy. Here's someone that rolled their own solution, and they say they can edit it through a regular text editor[1]. Here's a company that provides a solution, which also purports to offer team collaboration[2]. Here's a free set of tools that provide versioning, change tracking,and diffing[3]. That's from a single google search, the first three results. I'm dubious that there's not a way to deal with this problem that fits most the sensible criteria you could come up with, given that this is obviously an need people have been working to serve for quite some while now. 1: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/131605/best-way-to-do-version-control-for-ms-excel http://stackoverflow.com/questions/131605/best-way-to-do-ver... 2: https://www.pathio.com/ https://www.pathio.com/ 3: https://xltools.net/excel-version-control/ https://xltools.net/excel-version-control/

baldfat 10y ago

Your missing the point PEOPLE make mistakes. Where will you see the mistakes in Excel or a program. In Excel it is or close to impossible to see the steps someone did to get to the output. In programming you can see every single step and have version control. > Because: > - programmers never make copy and paste errors in other languages But they are discover-able and you can audit them and then fix them > - programmers never reverse a plus and minus sign in other languages But they are discover-able and you can audit them and then fix them > - programmers never break things with a last minute change Version control! > - there are never errors due to the size of code bases Yes this one is just STUPID

kbenson 10y ago
TL;DR - Excel is just a really accessible programming language, and as such it's used by a lot of amateurs. Like Perl in the 90's, the ease of getting started means a lot of people can use it, but the average quality of their code is abysmal, since the average level of experience is very low. That doesn't mean the tool itself is necessarily bad. - Did you watch the Spolsky video? I only ask because this is all child comments from a top level comment about a Martin Shkreli video, and since I watched that first, you might have as well and not gotten to the original video. The way Joel suggests using Excel is very like how developers program when using good practices. Always name ranges and cells before using them. Never use numbers directly in formulas (unless obvious, like 365), use the named cell/range you set up. Use tables when you want tabular data so you are prevented from accidentally using the wrong formula for portions of ranges. Use the included named formatting themes for cells that are meant to be user editable, and those that are computed. I watched the video and very quickly came to the conclusion that Excel is an IDE+Interpreter, like what people refer to when talking about Smalltalk (I assume, I've never actually used Smalltalk). The other thought I had is that it's probably the closest we've ever gotten to what people mean when they describe a visual programming language that just about anyone can use. Predictably, we often see the counterarguments to a system like that exhibited in Excel spreadsheets, which is poorly architected and designed spaghetti-code from people that don't have enough experience to know any better because they are amateurs. Copy and paste errors look far more discoverable when you use R1C1 mode, and look to be outright prevented in a lot of cases when using tables. Version control might be a good argument if it actually applied. Excel is a language, and I don't see any special version control baked into other languages programmers often use. It sits on top of them, and I don't see any reason why it couldn't sit on top of Excel as well. Export to a format that is version control friendly (perhaps with the help of an extra tool) and commit to VCS. Want to make a change? Check out the spreadsheet, convert as needed, and start working. Problem solved. Really, I came away with a much clearer picture of what Excel specifically is after the Spolsky talk, and it probably wasn't even that advanced. What it did do was give a crash course for programmers that let you make the clear associations to what you do in other languages, so there was communication going on at a few levels.
- mark-r 10y ago
  Version control is about more than just holding different versions and being able to restore them. It makes it so much easier to discover what changed between one version and another. Excel files are too opaque for that.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    I'm not sure how they are too opaque for that. If you are converting into an intermediary format, and saving that, depending on the format, it may even be easy. Here's someone that rolled their own solution, and they say they can edit it through a regular text editor[1]. Here's a company that provides a solution, which also purports to offer team collaboration[2]. Here's a free set of tools that provide versioning, change tracking,and diffing[3]. That's from a single google search, the first three results. I'm dubious that there's not a way to deal with this problem that fits most the sensible criteria you could come up with, given that this is obviously an need people have been working to serve for quite some while now. 1: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/131605/best-way-to-do-version-control-for-ms-excel http://stackoverflow.com/questions/131605/best-way-to-do-ver... 2: https://www.pathio.com/ https://www.pathio.com/ 3: https://xltools.net/excel-version-control/ https://xltools.net/excel-version-control/