5 ms·

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that the audio jack is one of the few cases where an analog port is good because if the signal in not already analog i

by xeonoex 10y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that the audio jack is one of the few cases where an analog port is good because if the signal in not already analog it must be converted to analog via a DAC. If the DAC isn't in the phone, it has to be in the headphones. So, not only do you need to worry about the quality of the headphones, you have to worry about the quality of the DAC, and the DAC needs power. Seems like a few good reasons to not ditch the audio jack for now, especially if you care about audio quality. Also, those that care about audio quality probably have several expensive sets of headphones that are now incompatible with new Apple phones.

scrumper 10y ago
The corollary is that you have to worry about the DAC in the phone if you have an analog jack, and they're not good. So with digital only, you have the option of buying a good off board DAC (if you care), or otherwise selecting digital headphones at a price point you like. All that said, I'm struggling to see the good side of Apple's decision to remove the 3.5mm jack. It'll make the phone worse in daily use for me - I won't be able to sit at my desk all day and charge my phone while listening to my existing, good headphones.
- sethhochberg 10y ago
  Nice external DACs connected to phones is nothing new - USB OTG has been around forever, and even back in the "iPod Connector" days digital IO pins were available. Lightning does not provide anything new in this regard - and certainly nothing more than Lightning + 3.5mm ever did.
  - Grangar 10y ago
    The problem with external DACs is that they don't easily fit in your pocket and cost a pretty penny. Cheap headphones will get even worse and good ones will get more expensive for including a good DAC. There are no winners in this game except for Apple, which can push more licenses and proprietary accessories.
    - sethhochberg 10y ago
      Completely agreed.
- DigitalJack 10y ago
  my wife has a dock that does this with her iphone SE. it doesn't use the 3.5mm jack, just lightning. So I'm speculating it's not a limitation of the lightning connector per se, but that of the dongle.
- slewis 10y ago
  The DAC in the iPhone is as good as any external DAC you can buy, when it comes to human perceivable sound quality. Any other claims are audiophile BS and placebo. There are valid product reasons for moving away from the 3.5mm jack though, like adding a power line that allows you to make active noise-canceling headphones that don't require their own battery, or outputting to more than two (stereo) speakers over a single cable.
  - largote 10y ago
    The DAC is, but the amplifier that's after it certainly isn't. And there's no line-out, so you're effectively dual-amping any signal if you use an amplifier on the built-in 3.5mm jack. In any case, I think they should have kept the onboard jack, and people who really care would continue to use external DAC/Amp stacks.
    - rplst8 10y ago
      It's not that simple. The load impedance is much different when used as a line out.
- noxryan 10y ago
  There are also ways to do Active Noise Cancelling without an external battery and without a new cable. I had an old Sony laptop that did ANR with software on the laptop and mics on the earpieces wired back into the laptop. Also the connector was backward compatible with a standard 3.5mm. They just used a 3.5mm connector with extra conductors on it like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Connectronics-TRRS-Conductor-Metal-Audio/dp/B006QP3WOO https://www.amazon.com/Connectronics-TRRS-Conductor-Metal-Au...
  - djfergus 10y ago
    I had one of those tiny Sony Vaio's that did the same - great idea and tech but did you ever use it in comparison to the state of the art from Bose etc? It was night and day - the Sony was barely better than normal ear buds on an aeroplane...
    - noxryan 10y ago
      I agree, I remember it being very poor compared to my Bose aviation headset. Still was a cool proof of concept. I imagine with the right software/hardware it could work just as well as external ANR
- i_are_smart 10y ago
  Here's the thing though - you have to have a DAC in the phone anyway because the phone needs to have a speaker built in. Now, it might be nice for some people to be able to get an external DAC in addition, but that should already be possible with something like USB OTG.
- Whitestrake 10y ago
  I'd just like to note that my Android phone (with its 3.5mm jack) supports my Audioengine D1. I don't know if iPhones do, although I assume not. There is no need to lock consumers into one way or another when there are already phones that can handle either!
- 21echoes 10y ago
  > The corollary is that you have to worry about the DAC in the phone if you have an analog jack, and they're not good. So with digital only, you have the option of buying a good off board DAC (if you care), or otherwise selecting digital headphones at a price point you like. You could already connect an off-board DAC to the iPhone pre-iPhone 7
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
kartickv 10y ago
The DAC is better placed in the headphone than the phone, because otherwise you get bad sound quality when you use high-end ($100) headphones with a low-end ($100) smartphone. I was able to clearly make out the difference compared to plugging in the same headphones into an iPhone. Put differently, when the DAC is in the phone, you need to worry about two things in order to get good sound quality — the quality of the headphones and the quality of the phone. With a DAC in the headphone, you worry about only one.

by xeonoex 10y ago

scrumper 10y ago

The corollary is that you have to worry about the DAC in the phone if you have an analog jack, and they're not good. So with digital only, you have the option of buying a good off board DAC (if you care), or otherwise selecting digital headphones at a price point you like. All that said, I'm struggling to see the good side of Apple's decision to remove the 3.5mm jack. It'll make the phone worse in daily use for me - I won't be able to sit at my desk all day and charge my phone while listening to my existing, good headphones.

sethhochberg 10y ago
Nice external DACs connected to phones is nothing new - USB OTG has been around forever, and even back in the "iPod Connector" days digital IO pins were available. Lightning does not provide anything new in this regard - and certainly nothing more than Lightning + 3.5mm ever did.
- Grangar 10y ago
  The problem with external DACs is that they don't easily fit in your pocket and cost a pretty penny. Cheap headphones will get even worse and good ones will get more expensive for including a good DAC. There are no winners in this game except for Apple, which can push more licenses and proprietary accessories.
  - sethhochberg 10y ago
    Completely agreed.
DigitalJack 10y ago
my wife has a dock that does this with her iphone SE. it doesn't use the 3.5mm jack, just lightning. So I'm speculating it's not a limitation of the lightning connector per se, but that of the dongle.
slewis 10y ago
The DAC in the iPhone is as good as any external DAC you can buy, when it comes to human perceivable sound quality. Any other claims are audiophile BS and placebo. There are valid product reasons for moving away from the 3.5mm jack though, like adding a power line that allows you to make active noise-canceling headphones that don't require their own battery, or outputting to more than two (stereo) speakers over a single cable.
- largote 10y ago
  The DAC is, but the amplifier that's after it certainly isn't. And there's no line-out, so you're effectively dual-amping any signal if you use an amplifier on the built-in 3.5mm jack. In any case, I think they should have kept the onboard jack, and people who really care would continue to use external DAC/Amp stacks.
  - rplst8 10y ago
    It's not that simple. The load impedance is much different when used as a line out.
noxryan 10y ago
There are also ways to do Active Noise Cancelling without an external battery and without a new cable. I had an old Sony laptop that did ANR with software on the laptop and mics on the earpieces wired back into the laptop. Also the connector was backward compatible with a standard 3.5mm. They just used a 3.5mm connector with extra conductors on it like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Connectronics-TRRS-Conductor-Metal-Audio/dp/B006QP3WOO https://www.amazon.com/Connectronics-TRRS-Conductor-Metal-Au...
- djfergus 10y ago
  I had one of those tiny Sony Vaio's that did the same - great idea and tech but did you ever use it in comparison to the state of the art from Bose etc? It was night and day - the Sony was barely better than normal ear buds on an aeroplane...
  - noxryan 10y ago
    I agree, I remember it being very poor compared to my Bose aviation headset. Still was a cool proof of concept. I imagine with the right software/hardware it could work just as well as external ANR
i_are_smart 10y ago
Here's the thing though - you have to have a DAC in the phone anyway because the phone needs to have a speaker built in. Now, it might be nice for some people to be able to get an external DAC in addition, but that should already be possible with something like USB OTG.
Whitestrake 10y ago
I'd just like to note that my Android phone (with its 3.5mm jack) supports my Audioengine D1. I don't know if iPhones do, although I assume not. There is no need to lock consumers into one way or another when there are already phones that can handle either!
21echoes 10y ago
> The corollary is that you have to worry about the DAC in the phone if you have an analog jack, and they're not good. So with digital only, you have the option of buying a good off board DAC (if you care), or otherwise selecting digital headphones at a price point you like. You could already connect an off-board DAC to the iPhone pre-iPhone 7

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

kartickv 10y ago

The DAC is better placed in the headphone than the phone, because otherwise you get bad sound quality when you use high-end ($100) headphones with a low-end ($100) smartphone. I was able to clearly make out the difference compared to plugging in the same headphones into an iPhone. Put differently, when the DAC is in the phone, you need to worry about two things in order to get good sound quality — the quality of the headphones and the quality of the phone. With a DAC in the headphone, you worry about only one.