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To be fair to Apple, I think they have a good point. Digital connectors are superior in almost every way (space use, port flexibility, sound quality, even cable

by DCKing 10y ago

To be fair to Apple, I think they have a good point. Digital connectors are superior in almost every way (space use, port flexibility, sound quality, even cable integrity). I admire them for ripping off the bandaid, like they did previously with disk drives and parrallel ports. Someone needs to lead the way to abandon legacy, and Apple can do that far more effectively than others (e.g. Motorola has also abandoned headphone jacks with their Moto Z line). One thing I cannot get over though, is that they chose their own propietary, you-have-to-pay-Apple-for-a-license, cannot-use-them-with-anything-else Lightning 'standard'. USB Type C is the standard for this stuff now, and any trivial technical merits Lightning might have over USB Type C don't weigh up against the universal nature of USB Type C. The sheer arrogance. Digital connectors the future? I'm on board with that. Propietary connectors? Fuck that.

jonknee 10y ago
> Digital connectors are superior in almost every way (space use, port flexibility, sound quality, even cable integrity). Then why has almost no one decided to use Lightning headphones when given a choice?
- scottmf 10y ago
  Chicken/egg
  - jonknee 10y ago
    It's not a chicken and egg problem, every iPhone for years has a Lightning port and yet almost no one buys any Lightning accessories other than charging cables. For headphones it offers no advantage and an obvious limitation. If Apple didn't remove the headphone jack in the iPhone 7 do you think any large number of people would intentionally buy Lightning headphones?
SCdF 10y ago
> (space use, port flexibility, Except they only gave you one port, so you can't even do something as benign as charge your phone and listen to fucking music at the same time. > sound quality, I challenge you to prove that one, I'm sure sound quality is indistinguishable. If it's good enough for every sound engineer ever it's good enough for me. > even cable integrity) Again, is that even true? You can knock out a cheap headphone cable that works perfectly, whereas lightning devices are always crazy expensive.
- DCKing 10y ago
  It wasn't even the point of my post, but I'll bite: a digital cable means you no longer have to rely on the form factor/budget constrained DAC included in the device itself and can go for DACs of your own choice. That doesn't necessarily imply improved audio quality, but it means you have more control over your audio quality. A digital cable can also do error handling and correction, meaning damage to the cable does not have the same impact as it does on analog cables. Yeah, you only have one port. But that's not a restriction of digital ports but of Apple's implementation, I fully expect Android phones with two or more USB Type C ports to be released. As you can see from my post I'm not a fan of Apple's implementation at all (despite the fact that it'd be merely a nuisance for me).
  - squeaky-clean 10y ago
    > a digital cable means you no longer have to rely on the form factor/budget constrained DAC included in the device itself and can go for DACs of your own choice. That doesn't necessarily imply improved audio quality, but it means you have more control over your audio quality. That's nothing new though. Those have been available for years. Some quick examples: http://www.guitarcenter.com/IK-Multimedia/iRig-HD-Studio-Quality-Guitar-Interface-for-iOS-MAC.gc http://www.guitarcenter.com/IK-Multimedia/iRig-HD-Studio-Qua... http://www.guitarcenter.com/Apogee/Duet-for-Mac-and-iOS.gc http://www.guitarcenter.com/Apogee/Duet-for-Mac-and-iOS.gc
  - relaytheurgency 10y ago
    I've put multiple pairs of earbuds through the washer and the dryer and they work just as well (and are cleaner!) as they did before. I don't see that happening with AirPods.
  - mthoms 10y ago
    Since lightning headphones are already a thing, removing the 3.5 inch port does not, in any way, give you more control over audio quality. In the current implementation the user at least has a choice.
  - rplst8 10y ago
mark-r 10y ago
I just bought a Moto X, and I'm glad I did because the Moto Z looks like its replacement. A standard headphone jack is a basic requirement for me, anybody who doesn't have one won't get my money.
xeonoex 10y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that the audio jack is one of the few cases where an analog port is good because if the signal in not already analog it must be converted to analog via a DAC. If the DAC isn't in the phone, it has to be in the headphones. So, not only do you need to worry about the quality of the headphones, you have to worry about the quality of the DAC, and the DAC needs power. Seems like a few good reasons to not ditch the audio jack for now, especially if you care about audio quality. Also, those that care about audio quality probably have several expensive sets of headphones that are now incompatible with new Apple phones.
- scrumper 10y ago
  The corollary is that you have to worry about the DAC in the phone if you have an analog jack, and they're not good. So with digital only, you have the option of buying a good off board DAC (if you care), or otherwise selecting digital headphones at a price point you like. All that said, I'm struggling to see the good side of Apple's decision to remove the 3.5mm jack. It'll make the phone worse in daily use for me - I won't be able to sit at my desk all day and charge my phone while listening to my existing, good headphones.
  - sethhochberg 10y ago
    Nice external DACs connected to phones is nothing new - USB OTG has been around forever, and even back in the "iPod Connector" days digital IO pins were available. Lightning does not provide anything new in this regard - and certainly nothing more than Lightning + 3.5mm ever did.
    - Grangar 10y ago
      The problem with external DACs is that they don't easily fit in your pocket and cost a pretty penny. Cheap headphones will get even worse and good ones will get more expensive for including a good DAC. There are no winners in this game except for Apple, which can push more licenses and proprietary accessories.
BinaryIdiot 10y ago
I completely agree. If they're going to get on their high horse about being brave they should have done this with USB-C. Now their phones will either never go USB-C or it will take 5 years before they do it otherwise all of those lightning headphones you just bought are now useless.
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  Or they'll do it next year and have a USB-C to lightning adapter that you plug your lightning to 3.5mm adapter into.
deckard1 10y ago
The thing is, we already have a lightning port. It's a thing that exists. We could already have lightning headphones and the current headphone jack. Together. Digital doesn't make up for the fact that we're moving from a near-universal standard headphone jack to a proprietary port. One that, mind you, is flat vs. round. The design of the headphone jack is superior. You can plug it in at any angle, and rotate it while plugged in. Now people are stuck with a flat cable that will just twist up during movement.
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  I'm more than a little shocked and disappointed that more people on HN don't care about avoiding proprietary formats. Most people here _make_ stuff. Open formats allow you to more easily make interoperable stuff. I don't want a world what I have Apple, Samsung, HTC, LG headphone connectors.
  - desdiv 10y ago
    I think it's a case of self-selection bias at work here. People who avoid proprietary formats are more likely to simply avoid iPhone/Apple threads altogether, so you simply won't hear them chiming in as much.
  - josteink 10y ago
    > I don't want a world what I have Apple, Samsung, HTC, LG headphone connectors. The EU managed to fix this once for power/data connectors. Maybe they'll have to do a rerun for audio.
- eric_cc 10y ago
  But won't wired headphones become niche for iPhone 7+? It seems most users will be fine using Bluetooth
- dbbk 10y ago
  Actually, we don't have a lightning port on Macs. You now can't use the same headphones for both iPhones and Macs. Unless you go wireless.
jshevek 10y ago
> USB Type C is the standard for this stuff now Exactly. I felt that Lenovo was being a bit premature and dropping the headphone jack but at least they're using a standard USB C connector.
easytiger 10y ago
> Digital connectors are superior in almost every way You don't know the first thing about noise or the transmogrification of noise at all do you? > don't weigh up against the universal nature of USB Type C. The sheer arrogance. Agreed. History is just coming to the downward part of a sine wave again... rejection of standards (see messagaing/storage/networking) and aggressive attempts at monopoly despite lack of convergence on singular solutions.

by DCKing 10y ago

jonknee 10y ago

> Digital connectors are superior in almost every way (space use, port flexibility, sound quality, even cable integrity). Then why has almost no one decided to use Lightning headphones when given a choice?

scottmf 10y ago
Chicken/egg
- jonknee 10y ago
  It's not a chicken and egg problem, every iPhone for years has a Lightning port and yet almost no one buys any Lightning accessories other than charging cables. For headphones it offers no advantage and an obvious limitation. If Apple didn't remove the headphone jack in the iPhone 7 do you think any large number of people would intentionally buy Lightning headphones?

SCdF 10y ago

> (space use, port flexibility, Except they only gave you one port, so you can't even do something as benign as charge your phone and listen to fucking music at the same time. > sound quality, I challenge you to prove that one, I'm sure sound quality is indistinguishable. If it's good enough for every sound engineer ever it's good enough for me. > even cable integrity) Again, is that even true? You can knock out a cheap headphone cable that works perfectly, whereas lightning devices are always crazy expensive.

DCKing 10y ago
It wasn't even the point of my post, but I'll bite: a digital cable means you no longer have to rely on the form factor/budget constrained DAC included in the device itself and can go for DACs of your own choice. That doesn't necessarily imply improved audio quality, but it means you have more control over your audio quality. A digital cable can also do error handling and correction, meaning damage to the cable does not have the same impact as it does on analog cables. Yeah, you only have one port. But that's not a restriction of digital ports but of Apple's implementation, I fully expect Android phones with two or more USB Type C ports to be released. As you can see from my post I'm not a fan of Apple's implementation at all (despite the fact that it'd be merely a nuisance for me).
- squeaky-clean 10y ago
  > a digital cable means you no longer have to rely on the form factor/budget constrained DAC included in the device itself and can go for DACs of your own choice. That doesn't necessarily imply improved audio quality, but it means you have more control over your audio quality. That's nothing new though. Those have been available for years. Some quick examples: http://www.guitarcenter.com/IK-Multimedia/iRig-HD-Studio-Quality-Guitar-Interface-for-iOS-MAC.gc http://www.guitarcenter.com/IK-Multimedia/iRig-HD-Studio-Qua... http://www.guitarcenter.com/Apogee/Duet-for-Mac-and-iOS.gc http://www.guitarcenter.com/Apogee/Duet-for-Mac-and-iOS.gc
- relaytheurgency 10y ago
  I've put multiple pairs of earbuds through the washer and the dryer and they work just as well (and are cleaner!) as they did before. I don't see that happening with AirPods.
- mthoms 10y ago
  Since lightning headphones are already a thing, removing the 3.5 inch port does not, in any way, give you more control over audio quality. In the current implementation the user at least has a choice.
- rplst8 10y ago

mark-r 10y ago

I just bought a Moto X, and I'm glad I did because the Moto Z looks like its replacement. A standard headphone jack is a basic requirement for me, anybody who doesn't have one won't get my money.

xeonoex 10y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that the audio jack is one of the few cases where an analog port is good because if the signal in not already analog it must be converted to analog via a DAC. If the DAC isn't in the phone, it has to be in the headphones. So, not only do you need to worry about the quality of the headphones, you have to worry about the quality of the DAC, and the DAC needs power. Seems like a few good reasons to not ditch the audio jack for now, especially if you care about audio quality. Also, those that care about audio quality probably have several expensive sets of headphones that are now incompatible with new Apple phones.

scrumper 10y ago
The corollary is that you have to worry about the DAC in the phone if you have an analog jack, and they're not good. So with digital only, you have the option of buying a good off board DAC (if you care), or otherwise selecting digital headphones at a price point you like. All that said, I'm struggling to see the good side of Apple's decision to remove the 3.5mm jack. It'll make the phone worse in daily use for me - I won't be able to sit at my desk all day and charge my phone while listening to my existing, good headphones.
- sethhochberg 10y ago
  Nice external DACs connected to phones is nothing new - USB OTG has been around forever, and even back in the "iPod Connector" days digital IO pins were available. Lightning does not provide anything new in this regard - and certainly nothing more than Lightning + 3.5mm ever did.
  - Grangar 10y ago
    The problem with external DACs is that they don't easily fit in your pocket and cost a pretty penny. Cheap headphones will get even worse and good ones will get more expensive for including a good DAC. There are no winners in this game except for Apple, which can push more licenses and proprietary accessories.

BinaryIdiot 10y ago

I completely agree. If they're going to get on their high horse about being brave they should have done this with USB-C. Now their phones will either never go USB-C or it will take 5 years before they do it otherwise all of those lightning headphones you just bought are now useless.

JustSomeNobody 10y ago
Or they'll do it next year and have a USB-C to lightning adapter that you plug your lightning to 3.5mm adapter into.

deckard1 10y ago

The thing is, we already have a lightning port. It's a thing that exists. We could already have lightning headphones and the current headphone jack. Together. Digital doesn't make up for the fact that we're moving from a near-universal standard headphone jack to a proprietary port. One that, mind you, is flat vs. round. The design of the headphone jack is superior. You can plug it in at any angle, and rotate it while plugged in. Now people are stuck with a flat cable that will just twist up during movement.

JustSomeNobody 10y ago
I'm more than a little shocked and disappointed that more people on HN don't care about avoiding proprietary formats. Most people here _make_ stuff. Open formats allow you to more easily make interoperable stuff. I don't want a world what I have Apple, Samsung, HTC, LG headphone connectors.
- desdiv 10y ago
  I think it's a case of self-selection bias at work here. People who avoid proprietary formats are more likely to simply avoid iPhone/Apple threads altogether, so you simply won't hear them chiming in as much.
- josteink 10y ago
  > I don't want a world what I have Apple, Samsung, HTC, LG headphone connectors. The EU managed to fix this once for power/data connectors. Maybe they'll have to do a rerun for audio.
eric_cc 10y ago
But won't wired headphones become niche for iPhone 7+? It seems most users will be fine using Bluetooth
dbbk 10y ago
Actually, we don't have a lightning port on Macs. You now can't use the same headphones for both iPhones and Macs. Unless you go wireless.

jshevek 10y ago

> USB Type C is the standard for this stuff now Exactly. I felt that Lenovo was being a bit premature and dropping the headphone jack but at least they're using a standard USB C connector.

easytiger 10y ago

> Digital connectors are superior in almost every way You don't know the first thing about noise or the transmogrification of noise at all do you? > don't weigh up against the universal nature of USB Type C. The sheer arrogance. Agreed. History is just coming to the downward part of a sine wave again... rejection of standards (see messagaing/storage/networking) and aggressive attempts at monopoly despite lack of convergence on singular solutions.