4 ms·

In principle I agree for the 1940s, a pan European brotherhood was probably not so important at the time. [Edit: And when they saw what they had done, it was a

by berntb 10y ago

In principle I agree for the 1940s, a pan European brotherhood was probably not so important at the time. [Edit: And when they saw what they had done, it was a MAD world...] But Yugoslavia was a special case, there the new government didn't come in, riding with an occupying tank army that broke the back of the population with hunger, Siberia and torture. Hungary 51, Czechoslovakia 68, the forest brothers of the Balkans... They did try. Hard. (Edit: Note -- when it was clear that Soviet tanks wouldn't roll in over the borders any more, the dictators went out quickly.) Democracies should try to spread the liberty. It is the modern missionary statement. If nothing else, it is good for everyone. Edit: Where I would put the disagreement: History shows that a brutal enough junta can keep a population down for generations. 1984, with history as a foot stomping in a face. (The junta probably needs control over the information for that to work.) So a population have an impossible time freeing itself from a pack of criminals without external help. And it is the moral duty for free societies to aid in this. (I hate idealism. But this is one I can stand for.)

DominikR 10y ago
I'm not in any brotherhood, I'm not a missionary and I'm not waging some kind of Jihad to spread my ideology in the world. You seem to not recognise that freedom cannot be obtained without self responsibility as you are constantly seeking to minimize the responsibility that people had for their own bad decisions and the bad outcomes that resulted from it.
- berntb 10y ago
  Soviet literally sent most of a troublesome population (and large parts of others) to Siberia. After 1945, a few percent in prison with torture was mild. Troublesome countries/populations could be permanently cured. You really write I "minimize the responsibility that people had for their own bad decisions" -- when I note that the populations knew that if they rocked the boat it would end with mass deportations to Gulag and/or genocide? (In many cases -- again!) Seriously... Enough. Edit: A large fraction of Lithuania did try and paid the price. Deportations and political prisoners in Gulags was 15+% of the population of around 2 millions in total then (see Demographics_of_Lithuania on wikipedia). The point was made that Soviet had no problem continuing up to 100%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithu...
  - DominikR 10y ago
    It is one thing what I personally dislike (for example what happened in Romania) and what I'm vocal against (Communism, Socialism) and what my country is responsible to fight for. (especially if the adversary was the Soviet Union) You are not going to convince me that the West is responsible for what happened in Romania unless you prove that the West forced you into Communism and actively helped to keep this Gulag system running. The only case you seem to make is that countries like Romania and Lithuania are no real sovereign nations because they are too weak. Am I right? What's your suggestion to solve this? You submit to someone else who is not the Soviet Union? Or you hope you'll find someone who will risk his safety for you for free?
    - berntb 10y ago
      1. I am not Romanian, be careful with personal details in personal attacks. 2. Most of the world's countries will be weaker than some neighbour. USA have not gotten enough credit, I'll agree with that, but I'll also dismiss you by hoping that you're a troll.

by berntb 10y ago

DominikR 10y ago

I'm not in any brotherhood, I'm not a missionary and I'm not waging some kind of Jihad to spread my ideology in the world. You seem to not recognise that freedom cannot be obtained without self responsibility as you are constantly seeking to minimize the responsibility that people had for their own bad decisions and the bad outcomes that resulted from it.

berntb 10y ago
Soviet literally sent most of a troublesome population (and large parts of others) to Siberia. After 1945, a few percent in prison with torture was mild. Troublesome countries/populations could be permanently cured. You really write I "minimize the responsibility that people had for their own bad decisions" -- when I note that the populations knew that if they rocked the boat it would end with mass deportations to Gulag and/or genocide? (In many cases -- again!) Seriously... Enough. Edit: A large fraction of Lithuania did try and paid the price. Deportations and political prisoners in Gulags was 15+% of the population of around 2 millions in total then (see Demographics_of_Lithuania on wikipedia). The point was made that Soviet had no problem continuing up to 100%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithu...
- DominikR 10y ago
  It is one thing what I personally dislike (for example what happened in Romania) and what I'm vocal against (Communism, Socialism) and what my country is responsible to fight for. (especially if the adversary was the Soviet Union) You are not going to convince me that the West is responsible for what happened in Romania unless you prove that the West forced you into Communism and actively helped to keep this Gulag system running. The only case you seem to make is that countries like Romania and Lithuania are no real sovereign nations because they are too weak. Am I right? What's your suggestion to solve this? You submit to someone else who is not the Soviet Union? Or you hope you'll find someone who will risk his safety for you for free?
  - berntb 10y ago
    1. I am not Romanian, be careful with personal details in personal attacks. 2. Most of the world's countries will be weaker than some neighbour. USA have not gotten enough credit, I'll agree with that, but I'll also dismiss you by hoping that you're a troll.