3 ms·

There were 15 recorded cases of people dying from kratom from 2014-2016. To put that in perspective, 15,000+ people die each year in America from NSAIDs like as

There were 15 recorded cases of people dying from kratom from 2014-2016. To put that in perspective, 15,000+ people die each year in America from NSAIDs like aspirin, and from similar causes (taking massive amounts, preexisting conditions, mixing it with other drugs). The good that kratom is doing for people far outweighs its minimal dangers, which can be mitigated by educating people on how to use it safely.

fapjacks 10y ago
A bunch of those deaths have been attributed to Kratom that was sprayed with opiates and other adulterants.
mbreese 10y ago
You have a denominator problem. 15 recorded (likely underreported) cases of people dying, but how many people took it in that time frame? How many people fully knew the risks? Given the lack of quality control, how much was due to contaminates? Millions of people take aspirin each year and the risks are well known with NSAIDs and they are produced at a very high quality. The absolute numbers are very misleading without knowing the exposure rates. I don't take a position one way or the other on Kratom, because I don't know anything about it, but your argument is not very compelling from a statistical perspective.
- glibgil 10y ago
  Maybe only 15 people took it and they all died. Should Schedule 1 classification be used for a drug that only 15 people want to take?
  - jmcgough 10y ago
    "From February 2014 to July 2016, over 55,000 kilograms of kratom material were encountered by law enforcement at various ports of entry within the United States. Additionally, another 57,000+ kilograms of kratom material offered for import into the United States between 2014 and 2016 are awaiting an FDA admissibility decision. Together, this material is enough to produce over 12 million doses of kratom." [1] Seizure rates are very low for drug shipments, so we're likely talking about about hundred of thousands of people who're using kratom, which has risen dramatically in the past year. [1] https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml
- jmcgough 10y ago
  That's a fair argument, but it's impossible for me to compare them because there's no data on how many people use kratom. I'm not saying it's less dangerous than NSAIDs necessarily, as kratom is poorly researched at this point. What I'm trying to say is that we allow people to freely use NSAIDs in spite of the regular death that they cause, because of the benefits they provide. I don't see what makes kratom any different from that - it seems like a knee-jerk reaction in the middle of an opiate epidemic, just because it seems to be agonistic.
  - exelius 10y ago
    Right; there has to be a middle ground between "zero regulation" and "total prohibition". Schedule 1 classification effectively prevents research, which is a bad idea. But likewise, no regulation means this stuff will start showing up in bodegas with all sorts of claims attached to it and very little quality control -- a bad idea for a substance that is known to be capable of causing death in large quantities. There has to be a middle ground.
awinder 10y ago
That's in the US though, which had only received 600 or so cases reported in 5 years. There's a point to be made about regulating it while still a fringe fad. It also causes tachycardia and high blood pressure so while it may be providing people relief for some of their symptoms, it's a potentially dangerous substance for certain patients.
novascotiabum 10y ago
Those deaths were from Tramadol as the vendor(Krypton Kratom) spiked their kratom with O-desmethyltramadol. Link to the study about the toxicology can be found here: http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/4/242.long http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/4/242.long
aidenn0 10y ago
I thought Tylenol killed many more people than all the NSAIDs combined?

fapjacks 10y ago

A bunch of those deaths have been attributed to Kratom that was sprayed with opiates and other adulterants.

mbreese 10y ago

You have a denominator problem. 15 recorded (likely underreported) cases of people dying, but how many people took it in that time frame? How many people fully knew the risks? Given the lack of quality control, how much was due to contaminates? Millions of people take aspirin each year and the risks are well known with NSAIDs and they are produced at a very high quality. The absolute numbers are very misleading without knowing the exposure rates. I don't take a position one way or the other on Kratom, because I don't know anything about it, but your argument is not very compelling from a statistical perspective.

glibgil 10y ago
Maybe only 15 people took it and they all died. Should Schedule 1 classification be used for a drug that only 15 people want to take?
- jmcgough 10y ago
  "From February 2014 to July 2016, over 55,000 kilograms of kratom material were encountered by law enforcement at various ports of entry within the United States. Additionally, another 57,000+ kilograms of kratom material offered for import into the United States between 2014 and 2016 are awaiting an FDA admissibility decision. Together, this material is enough to produce over 12 million doses of kratom." [1] Seizure rates are very low for drug shipments, so we're likely talking about about hundred of thousands of people who're using kratom, which has risen dramatically in the past year. [1] https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml
jmcgough 10y ago
That's a fair argument, but it's impossible for me to compare them because there's no data on how many people use kratom. I'm not saying it's less dangerous than NSAIDs necessarily, as kratom is poorly researched at this point. What I'm trying to say is that we allow people to freely use NSAIDs in spite of the regular death that they cause, because of the benefits they provide. I don't see what makes kratom any different from that - it seems like a knee-jerk reaction in the middle of an opiate epidemic, just because it seems to be agonistic.
- exelius 10y ago
  Right; there has to be a middle ground between "zero regulation" and "total prohibition". Schedule 1 classification effectively prevents research, which is a bad idea. But likewise, no regulation means this stuff will start showing up in bodegas with all sorts of claims attached to it and very little quality control -- a bad idea for a substance that is known to be capable of causing death in large quantities. There has to be a middle ground.

awinder 10y ago

That's in the US though, which had only received 600 or so cases reported in 5 years. There's a point to be made about regulating it while still a fringe fad. It also causes tachycardia and high blood pressure so while it may be providing people relief for some of their symptoms, it's a potentially dangerous substance for certain patients.

novascotiabum 10y ago

Those deaths were from Tramadol as the vendor(Krypton Kratom) spiked their kratom with O-desmethyltramadol. Link to the study about the toxicology can be found here: http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/4/242.long http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/4/242.long

aidenn0 10y ago

I thought Tylenol killed many more people than all the NSAIDs combined?