4 ms·

I think the idea is to go after the distributors and importers; not the end users. They're trying to prevent a commercial industry from growing around it before

by exelius 10y ago

I think the idea is to go after the distributors and importers; not the end users. They're trying to prevent a commercial industry from growing around it before it starts (just like it did with the "synthetic marijuana" that we now know to be incredibly toxic). Also, Kratom is already illegal basically everywhere it grows because it does cause many of the same societal problems that other narcotics do. It is known to be chemically addictive and can cause death via overdose or through interactions with other drugs. While a knee-jerk schedule 1 classification is too harsh (I don't think we know enough about it to declare it as having no theraputic use); it certainly shouldn't go unregulated either. If you leave it unregulated, vultures with no regard for human life will swoop in and start marketing it as diet pills, herbal painkillers, etc. with few regards for its safety or effectiveness. If you regulate it early, you can prevent large amounts of it from flooding the market and start to educate people as to what it is before it becomes a problem. IMO it's specifically a problem because it's so unknown in the West that people will assume it's not dangerous.

fapjacks 10y ago
No, this is wrong. Thailand scheduled Kratom in the 1940s specifically because it was competing with their opiate trade. People use Kratom to wean themselves off of opiates. Additionally, Thailand is now considering removing the ban precisely because it doesn't have the same problems as drugs [0]. Now, what you've said about regulation I think is important, and something we need to look at. I do agree with that. There are unscrupulous suppliers of Kratom out there, and the deaths the DEA is talking about are mostly from bad suppliers spraying their Kratom with other opiates (most commonly O-Desmethyltramadol). The other deaths all involved mixing Kratom with other chemicals. [0] http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-09-17/thailand-s-cure-meth-addiction-leafy-jungle-stimulant http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-09-17/thailand-s-cure-meth-a...
- eip 10y ago
  >Thailand scheduled Kratom in the 1940s specifically because it was competing with their opiate trade. Exactly the reason the DEA is banning it in the US.
jMyles 10y ago
> it does cause many of the same societal problems that other narcotics do This, and the evidence of the failure of prohibition of existing opiate and opiod drugs to mitigate those harms, is the best reason not to prohibit it.
KitDuncan 10y ago
1. You know synthetic marijuana only exists because of prohibition right? 2. I have never heard of a single death by Kratom overdose. I have heard of countless people kicking their opiate addiction with help of Kratom. I really don't know what to even say about your third paragraph.
- exelius 10y ago
  I'm not arguing for prohibition (schedule 1). I'm saying that we should make it schedule 2 (which would allow federal funding for medical research), study it in detail (since it's a relatively un-researched drug) and come up with guidelines around how to use it safely. Your #2 is anecdotal evidence. Not saying it's wrong and that Kratom has no benefits; but this is exactly why more study is needed. In the meantime, we have to keep the snake oil salesmen at bay.
jmcgough 10y ago
There were 15 recorded cases of people dying from kratom from 2014-2016. To put that in perspective, 15,000+ people die each year in America from NSAIDs like aspirin, and from similar causes (taking massive amounts, preexisting conditions, mixing it with other drugs). The good that kratom is doing for people far outweighs its minimal dangers, which can be mitigated by educating people on how to use it safely.
- fapjacks 10y ago
  A bunch of those deaths have been attributed to Kratom that was sprayed with opiates and other adulterants.
- mbreese 10y ago
  You have a denominator problem. 15 recorded (likely underreported) cases of people dying, but how many people took it in that time frame? How many people fully knew the risks? Given the lack of quality control, how much was due to contaminates? Millions of people take aspirin each year and the risks are well known with NSAIDs and they are produced at a very high quality. The absolute numbers are very misleading without knowing the exposure rates. I don't take a position one way or the other on Kratom, because I don't know anything about it, but your argument is not very compelling from a statistical perspective.
  - glibgil 10y ago
    Maybe only 15 people took it and they all died. Should Schedule 1 classification be used for a drug that only 15 people want to take?
    - jmcgough 10y ago
      "From February 2014 to July 2016, over 55,000 kilograms of kratom material were encountered by law enforcement at various ports of entry within the United States. Additionally, another 57,000+ kilograms of kratom material offered for import into the United States between 2014 and 2016 are awaiting an FDA admissibility decision. Together, this material is enough to produce over 12 million doses of kratom." [1] Seizure rates are very low for drug shipments, so we're likely talking about about hundred of thousands of people who're using kratom, which has risen dramatically in the past year. [1] https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml
novascotiabum 10y ago
The reason Thailand banned kratom was because around the time their government was receiving taxes from opium. As kratom provides a way for opium addicts to get off of opium it seems they considered it a conflict of interest.Justice Minister Chaikasem Nitsiri is working to end the 70 year old ban on kratom in Thailand as well. link to an article about this can be found here: http://speciosa.org/Thailand-looks-to-legalize-kratom-justice-minister-chaikasem-nitsiri-is-pushing-senior-officials-to-end-a-70-year-old-ban-on-kratom-enacted-under-a-dubious-pretense-kratom-once-helped-opium-users-kic/ http://speciosa.org/Thailand-looks-to-legalize-kratom-justic...
lnufnu 10y ago
Kratom actually does not cause respiratory depression and there is doubt the powdered leaf (not concentrate) alone can causes death. It began to be used in place of opium in Malaysia starting in 1836. [1] It has already been on the market in the US for many years. It was researched by Smith, Kline & French (acquired by GlaxoSmithKline) and one of its alkaloids was patented in 1963. [2] It is aiding people in quitting opiates/heroin and is much easier to withdraw from. Companies sell it as botanical specimens, soap ingredients, and generally label it as not for human consumption and consumers understand what they are getting. There has not been a problem, aside from the contamination with O-desmethyltramadol and consumers mixing drugs. In fact, the CDC reported only one death in six years involving kratom, as well as paroxetine and lamotrigine. There are 16 deaths where kratom has been found in autopsy reports and 14 in the scientific literature. [3] Regulation is important. Users should be able to know that the product they are buying is safe and would probably like to know the alkaloid content, the same way marijuana strains are tested. Schedule 1 is not appropriate for this plant. It is going to encourage synthetic alkaloid production. In fact, PZM21 is being synthesized to be able to curb addiction without respiratory issues. [4] While this is great for addiction treatment, it is unfortunate that kratom will not be available for those who use it in place of opiates. If you are interested in the research that is available, someone has uploaded it all here: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B_SMhCuwVcKjZWxSRnA0QVFmOGc https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B_SMhCuwVcKjZWxS... 1. http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html 2. https://www.google.com/patents/US3324111 https://www.google.com/patents/US3324111 3. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/09/01/the-deas-crazy-kratom-ban-dresses-pharmacological-phobias-in-scientific-garb/#5e14fb7f4f86 http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/09/01/the-deas-... 4. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature19112.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu... In case it gets removed, here are individual links to the research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23725528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23725528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23024321 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23024321 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20869223 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20869223 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23846544 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23846544 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24314525 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24314525 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25216455 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25216455 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25616583 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25616583 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25825913 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25825913 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3419199 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3419199 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323 https://www.google.com/patents/US8648090 https://www.google.com/patents/US8648090 https://www.google.com/patents/US8247428 https://www.google.com/patents/US8247428 https://www.google.com/patents/US20100209542 https://www.google.com/patents/US20100209542 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268515893_Marketing_a_Panic_Media_Coverage_of_Novel_Psychoactive_Drugs_NPDs_and_its_Relationship_with_Legal_Changes https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268515893_Marketing... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268183866_Molecular_cloning_and_characterization_of_strictosidine_synthase_a_key_gene_in_biosynthesis_of_mitragynine_from_Mitragyna_speciosa https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268183866_Molecular... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10428019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10428019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202507/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202507/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018854 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018854 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482427 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482427 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-009-0070-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-009-0070-5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25950592 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25950592 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19536806 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19536806 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19294483 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19294483 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17882605 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17882605 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25081682 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25081682 http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://www.americankratom.org/science http://www.americankratom.org/science
JamesBarney 10y ago
You have to remember the original cause of synthetic marijuana use was making safer options illegal. A large portion of people use Kratom instead of stronger more dangerous alternatives. Things like Vicodin, Oxycontin, and heroin. Regulating this will drive some users back to there harder alternatives, and there is no data that supports that this will make people safer. And it could make people less safe, not mention the issue with restricting adult's abilities to make decisions.

by exelius 10y ago

fapjacks 10y ago

No, this is wrong. Thailand scheduled Kratom in the 1940s specifically because it was competing with their opiate trade. People use Kratom to wean themselves off of opiates. Additionally, Thailand is now considering removing the ban precisely because it doesn't have the same problems as drugs [0]. Now, what you've said about regulation I think is important, and something we need to look at. I do agree with that. There are unscrupulous suppliers of Kratom out there, and the deaths the DEA is talking about are mostly from bad suppliers spraying their Kratom with other opiates (most commonly O-Desmethyltramadol). The other deaths all involved mixing Kratom with other chemicals. [0] http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-09-17/thailand-s-cure-meth-addiction-leafy-jungle-stimulant http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-09-17/thailand-s-cure-meth-a...

eip 10y ago
>Thailand scheduled Kratom in the 1940s specifically because it was competing with their opiate trade. Exactly the reason the DEA is banning it in the US.

jMyles 10y ago

> it does cause many of the same societal problems that other narcotics do This, and the evidence of the failure of prohibition of existing opiate and opiod drugs to mitigate those harms, is the best reason not to prohibit it.

KitDuncan 10y ago

1. You know synthetic marijuana only exists because of prohibition right? 2. I have never heard of a single death by Kratom overdose. I have heard of countless people kicking their opiate addiction with help of Kratom. I really don't know what to even say about your third paragraph.

exelius 10y ago
I'm not arguing for prohibition (schedule 1). I'm saying that we should make it schedule 2 (which would allow federal funding for medical research), study it in detail (since it's a relatively un-researched drug) and come up with guidelines around how to use it safely. Your #2 is anecdotal evidence. Not saying it's wrong and that Kratom has no benefits; but this is exactly why more study is needed. In the meantime, we have to keep the snake oil salesmen at bay.

jmcgough 10y ago

There were 15 recorded cases of people dying from kratom from 2014-2016. To put that in perspective, 15,000+ people die each year in America from NSAIDs like aspirin, and from similar causes (taking massive amounts, preexisting conditions, mixing it with other drugs). The good that kratom is doing for people far outweighs its minimal dangers, which can be mitigated by educating people on how to use it safely.

fapjacks 10y ago
A bunch of those deaths have been attributed to Kratom that was sprayed with opiates and other adulterants.
mbreese 10y ago
You have a denominator problem. 15 recorded (likely underreported) cases of people dying, but how many people took it in that time frame? How many people fully knew the risks? Given the lack of quality control, how much was due to contaminates? Millions of people take aspirin each year and the risks are well known with NSAIDs and they are produced at a very high quality. The absolute numbers are very misleading without knowing the exposure rates. I don't take a position one way or the other on Kratom, because I don't know anything about it, but your argument is not very compelling from a statistical perspective.
- glibgil 10y ago
  Maybe only 15 people took it and they all died. Should Schedule 1 classification be used for a drug that only 15 people want to take?
  - jmcgough 10y ago
    "From February 2014 to July 2016, over 55,000 kilograms of kratom material were encountered by law enforcement at various ports of entry within the United States. Additionally, another 57,000+ kilograms of kratom material offered for import into the United States between 2014 and 2016 are awaiting an FDA admissibility decision. Together, this material is enough to produce over 12 million doses of kratom." [1] Seizure rates are very low for drug shipments, so we're likely talking about about hundred of thousands of people who're using kratom, which has risen dramatically in the past year. [1] https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml

novascotiabum 10y ago

The reason Thailand banned kratom was because around the time their government was receiving taxes from opium. As kratom provides a way for opium addicts to get off of opium it seems they considered it a conflict of interest.Justice Minister Chaikasem Nitsiri is working to end the 70 year old ban on kratom in Thailand as well. link to an article about this can be found here: http://speciosa.org/Thailand-looks-to-legalize-kratom-justice-minister-chaikasem-nitsiri-is-pushing-senior-officials-to-end-a-70-year-old-ban-on-kratom-enacted-under-a-dubious-pretense-kratom-once-helped-opium-users-kic/ http://speciosa.org/Thailand-looks-to-legalize-kratom-justic...

lnufnu 10y ago

Kratom actually does not cause respiratory depression and there is doubt the powdered leaf (not concentrate) alone can causes death. It began to be used in place of opium in Malaysia starting in 1836. [1] It has already been on the market in the US for many years. It was researched by Smith, Kline & French (acquired by GlaxoSmithKline) and one of its alkaloids was patented in 1963. [2] It is aiding people in quitting opiates/heroin and is much easier to withdraw from. Companies sell it as botanical specimens, soap ingredients, and generally label it as not for human consumption and consumers understand what they are getting. There has not been a problem, aside from the contamination with O-desmethyltramadol and consumers mixing drugs. In fact, the CDC reported only one death in six years involving kratom, as well as paroxetine and lamotrigine. There are 16 deaths where kratom has been found in autopsy reports and 14 in the scientific literature. [3] Regulation is important. Users should be able to know that the product they are buying is safe and would probably like to know the alkaloid content, the same way marijuana strains are tested. Schedule 1 is not appropriate for this plant. It is going to encourage synthetic alkaloid production. In fact, PZM21 is being synthesized to be able to curb addiction without respiratory issues. [4] While this is great for addiction treatment, it is unfortunate that kratom will not be available for those who use it in place of opiates. If you are interested in the research that is available, someone has uploaded it all here: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B_SMhCuwVcKjZWxSRnA0QVFmOGc https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B_SMhCuwVcKjZWxS... 1. http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html 2. https://www.google.com/patents/US3324111 https://www.google.com/patents/US3324111 3. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/09/01/the-deas-crazy-kratom-ban-dresses-pharmacological-phobias-in-scientific-garb/#5e14fb7f4f86 http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/09/01/the-deas-... 4. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature19112.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu... In case it gets removed, here are individual links to the research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23725528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23725528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23024321 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23024321 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20869223 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20869223 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23846544 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23846544 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24314525 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24314525 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25216455 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25216455 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25616583 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25616583 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25825913 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25825913 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3419199 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3419199 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323 https://www.google.com/patents/US8648090 https://www.google.com/patents/US8648090 https://www.google.com/patents/US8247428 https://www.google.com/patents/US8247428 https://www.google.com/patents/US20100209542 https://www.google.com/patents/US20100209542 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268515893_Marketing_a_Panic_Media_Coverage_of_Novel_Psychoactive_Drugs_NPDs_and_its_Relationship_with_Legal_Changes https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268515893_Marketing... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268183866_Molecular_cloning_and_characterization_of_strictosidine_synthase_a_key_gene_in_biosynthesis_of_mitragynine_from_Mitragyna_speciosa https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268183866_Molecular... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10428019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10428019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202507/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202507/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018854 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018854 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482427 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482427 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-009-0070-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-009-0070-5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25950592 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25950592 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19536806 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19536806 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19294483 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19294483 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17882605 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17882605 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25081682 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25081682 http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://www.americankratom.org/science http://www.americankratom.org/science

JamesBarney 10y ago

You have to remember the original cause of synthetic marijuana use was making safer options illegal. A large portion of people use Kratom instead of stronger more dangerous alternatives. Things like Vicodin, Oxycontin, and heroin. Regulating this will drive some users back to there harder alternatives, and there is no data that supports that this will make people safer. And it could make people less safe, not mention the issue with restricting adult's abilities to make decisions.