7 ms·

Call to Action to save Kratom plant from DEA's uninformed Schedule I decision

78 points by fapjacks 10y ago

coldpie 10y ago
Regardless of how you feel about drugs for personal use, enjoyment, or their health benefits, ask yourself: how would society benefit by putting these users in jail or setting them back financially? Do we have a Kratom problem? Have you ever even heard of Kratom before? Is continuing to put our resources into jailing otherwise-productive members of society the best way to use those resources?
- exelius 10y ago
  I think the idea is to go after the distributors and importers; not the end users. They're trying to prevent a commercial industry from growing around it before it starts (just like it did with the "synthetic marijuana" that we now know to be incredibly toxic). Also, Kratom is already illegal basically everywhere it grows because it does cause many of the same societal problems that other narcotics do. It is known to be chemically addictive and can cause death via overdose or through interactions with other drugs. While a knee-jerk schedule 1 classification is too harsh (I don't think we know enough about it to declare it as having no theraputic use); it certainly shouldn't go unregulated either. If you leave it unregulated, vultures with no regard for human life will swoop in and start marketing it as diet pills, herbal painkillers, etc. with few regards for its safety or effectiveness. If you regulate it early, you can prevent large amounts of it from flooding the market and start to educate people as to what it is before it becomes a problem. IMO it's specifically a problem because it's so unknown in the West that people will assume it's not dangerous.
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    No, this is wrong. Thailand scheduled Kratom in the 1940s specifically because it was competing with their opiate trade. People use Kratom to wean themselves off of opiates. Additionally, Thailand is now considering removing the ban precisely because it doesn't have the same problems as drugs [0]. Now, what you've said about regulation I think is important, and something we need to look at. I do agree with that. There are unscrupulous suppliers of Kratom out there, and the deaths the DEA is talking about are mostly from bad suppliers spraying their Kratom with other opiates (most commonly O-Desmethyltramadol). The other deaths all involved mixing Kratom with other chemicals. [0] http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-09-17/thailand-s-cure-meth-addiction-leafy-jungle-stimulant http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-09-17/thailand-s-cure-meth-a...
    - eip 10y ago
      >Thailand scheduled Kratom in the 1940s specifically because it was competing with their opiate trade. Exactly the reason the DEA is banning it in the US.
  - jMyles 10y ago
    > it does cause many of the same societal problems that other narcotics do This, and the evidence of the failure of prohibition of existing opiate and opiod drugs to mitigate those harms, is the best reason not to prohibit it.
  - KitDuncan 10y ago
    1. You know synthetic marijuana only exists because of prohibition right? 2. I have never heard of a single death by Kratom overdose. I have heard of countless people kicking their opiate addiction with help of Kratom. I really don't know what to even say about your third paragraph.
    - exelius 10y ago
      I'm not arguing for prohibition (schedule 1). I'm saying that we should make it schedule 2 (which would allow federal funding for medical research), study it in detail (since it's a relatively un-researched drug) and come up with guidelines around how to use it safely. Your #2 is anecdotal evidence. Not saying it's wrong and that Kratom has no benefits; but this is exactly why more study is needed. In the meantime, we have to keep the snake oil salesmen at bay.
  - jmcgough 10y ago
    There were 15 recorded cases of people dying from kratom from 2014-2016. To put that in perspective, 15,000+ people die each year in America from NSAIDs like aspirin, and from similar causes (taking massive amounts, preexisting conditions, mixing it with other drugs). The good that kratom is doing for people far outweighs its minimal dangers, which can be mitigated by educating people on how to use it safely.
    - fapjacks 10y ago
      A bunch of those deaths have been attributed to Kratom that was sprayed with opiates and other adulterants.
    - mbreese 10y ago
      You have a denominator problem. 15 recorded (likely underreported) cases of people dying, but how many people took it in that time frame? How many people fully knew the risks? Given the lack of quality control, how much was due to contaminates? Millions of people take aspirin each year and the risks are well known with NSAIDs and they are produced at a very high quality. The absolute numbers are very misleading without knowing the exposure rates. I don't take a position one way or the other on Kratom, because I don't know anything about it, but your argument is not very compelling from a statistical perspective.
      - glibgil 10y ago
        Maybe only 15 people took it and they all died. Should Schedule 1 classification be used for a drug that only 15 people want to take?
        jmcgough 10y ago
        "From February 2014 to July 2016, over 55,000 kilograms of kratom material were encountered by law enforcement at various ports of entry within the United States. Additionally, another 57,000+ kilograms of kratom material offered for import into the United States between 2014 and 2016 are awaiting an FDA admissibility decision. Together, this material is enough to produce over 12 million doses of kratom." [1] Seizure rates are very low for drug shipments, so we're likely talking about about hundred of thousands of people who're using kratom, which has risen dramatically in the past year. [1] https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml
  - novascotiabum 10y ago
    The reason Thailand banned kratom was because around the time their government was receiving taxes from opium. As kratom provides a way for opium addicts to get off of opium it seems they considered it a conflict of interest.Justice Minister Chaikasem Nitsiri is working to end the 70 year old ban on kratom in Thailand as well. link to an article about this can be found here: http://speciosa.org/Thailand-looks-to-legalize-kratom-justice-minister-chaikasem-nitsiri-is-pushing-senior-officials-to-end-a-70-year-old-ban-on-kratom-enacted-under-a-dubious-pretense-kratom-once-helped-opium-users-kic/ http://speciosa.org/Thailand-looks-to-legalize-kratom-justic...
  - lnufnu 10y ago
    Kratom actually does not cause respiratory depression and there is doubt the powdered leaf (not concentrate) alone can causes death. It began to be used in place of opium in Malaysia starting in 1836. [1] It has already been on the market in the US for many years. It was researched by Smith, Kline & French (acquired by GlaxoSmithKline) and one of its alkaloids was patented in 1963. [2] It is aiding people in quitting opiates/heroin and is much easier to withdraw from. Companies sell it as botanical specimens, soap ingredients, and generally label it as not for human consumption and consumers understand what they are getting. There has not been a problem, aside from the contamination with O-desmethyltramadol and consumers mixing drugs. In fact, the CDC reported only one death in six years involving kratom, as well as paroxetine and lamotrigine. There are 16 deaths where kratom has been found in autopsy reports and 14 in the scientific literature. [3] Regulation is important. Users should be able to know that the product they are buying is safe and would probably like to know the alkaloid content, the same way marijuana strains are tested. Schedule 1 is not appropriate for this plant. It is going to encourage synthetic alkaloid production. In fact, PZM21 is being synthesized to be able to curb addiction without respiratory issues. [4] While this is great for addiction treatment, it is unfortunate that kratom will not be available for those who use it in place of opiates. If you are interested in the research that is available, someone has uploaded it all here: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B_SMhCuwVcKjZWxSRnA0QVFmOGc https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B_SMhCuwVcKjZWxS... 1. http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html 2. https://www.google.com/patents/US3324111 https://www.google.com/patents/US3324111 3. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/09/01/the-deas-crazy-kratom-ban-dresses-pharmacological-phobias-in-scientific-garb/#5e14fb7f4f86 http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/09/01/the-deas-... 4. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature19112.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu... In case it gets removed, here are individual links to the research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23725528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23725528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23024321 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23024321 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20869223 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20869223 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23846544 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23846544 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24314525 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24314525 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25216455 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25216455 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25616583 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25616583 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25825913 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25825913 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3419199 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3419199 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323 https://www.google.com/patents/US8648090 https://www.google.com/patents/US8648090 https://www.google.com/patents/US8247428 https://www.google.com/patents/US8247428 https://www.google.com/patents/US20100209542 https://www.google.com/patents/US20100209542 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268515893_Marketing_a_Panic_Media_Coverage_of_Novel_Psychoactive_Drugs_NPDs_and_its_Relationship_with_Legal_Changes https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268515893_Marketing... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268183866_Molecular_cloning_and_characterization_of_strictosidine_synthase_a_key_gene_in_biosynthesis_of_mitragynine_from_Mitragyna_speciosa https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268183866_Molecular... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10428019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10428019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202507/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202507/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018854 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018854 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482427 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482427 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-009-0070-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-009-0070-5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25950592 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25950592 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19536806 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19536806 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19294483 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19294483 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17882605 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17882605 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25081682 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25081682 http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://www.americankratom.org/science http://www.americankratom.org/science
  - JamesBarney 10y ago
    You have to remember the original cause of synthetic marijuana use was making safer options illegal. A large portion of people use Kratom instead of stronger more dangerous alternatives. Things like Vicodin, Oxycontin, and heroin. Regulating this will drive some users back to there harder alternatives, and there is no data that supports that this will make people safer. And it could make people less safe, not mention the issue with restricting adult's abilities to make decisions.
- fapjacks 10y ago
  If you look for #iamkratom and #savekratom hashtags around the web and read the stories and watch the videos, the worst part of this decision is the kinds of people it will affect. Grandmothers, disabled veterans (such as myself), taxpaying citizens providing for their families. This is not a drug and there is not an abuse problem. I do encourage anyone and everyone to do their own research, and look for the testimonials. The DEA's decision is a very poor one.
  - zild3d 10y ago
    How can you claim this is not a drug? It has a physiological effect when ingested.
    - fapjacks 10y ago
      Well, cheese has a physiolocial effect when ingested. In fact, chemicals in cheese are known to bind to opioid receptors in our brains. But we don't call cheese a drug, do we? I think it's safe to say that Kratom isn't properly characterized as a "drug" in the same way that the DEA is characterizing it as a "drug".
      - metaphorm 10y ago
        people aren't eating it for its nutritional value. don't be ridiculous. it's being taken for medicinal purposes.
        fapjacks 10y ago
        People aren't taking it to get high.
        20after4 10y ago
        Actually, some people _are_ taking it to get high. I have seen people use it to help with Opiate addiction, however, I have also seen people use it recreationally. A couple of capsules of ground up kratom leaf have effects similar to a low dose of Vicodin.
jMyles 10y ago
After the completely incorrect assessment of MDMA during the emergency scheduling process (ie, both attributing far more danger than was accurate and ignoring the substantial evidence of medical benefit in psychotherapy), we err'd by not immediately removing the emergency scheduling authority from the DEA. Now we're facing the consequences of continuing to allow this charlatan agency to continue to make scientific decisions.
- mr337 10y ago
  AKA protecting their budget
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  Even emergency powers of it should be limited to Schedule II. Schedule I is for things known to be highly detrimental and dangerous.
  - jMyles 10y ago
    Schedule I is for substances with a high potential for abuse and no medical benefit. Even if we might disagree about the former, it's obvious that both MDMA and Kratom have incredible medical benefits.
civilian 10y ago
I wonder if the kratom community should have gotten infront of this. If you think the DEA is going to come down with the Emergency Schedule 1 hammer, then maybe it'd be better to take action to make it become Schedule 4 or 5. First impressions are important, if your group is the first one to talk to congress then you can control the narrative.
- bitchypat 10y ago
  Best of luck confronting the full force of the producers of caffeinated anything. Coffee, tea, soda, energy drinks. We could probably throw a handful of the pharmaceutical giants in there for good measure. Qui bono?
- fapjacks 10y ago
  We are mobilizing. We have email and phone call campaigns going, and the petition (which may be more useful than other petitions people have seen since it qualifies under the third condition under which this decision can be fought by the DEA). There is a national march in Washington DC on the 13th. We are trying.
  - civilian 10y ago
    Thanks for the work! But I meant, get infront of this by advocating Kratom for schedule IV or V several years ago. Sorry, I'm being an armchair activist.
    - fapjacks 10y ago
      No, you're exactly right. We were a silent majority for all of these years, when we could have been putting out peace feelers before this became a problem. We could have been educating people.
elcct 10y ago
If it doesn't make sense, then there must be big money behind it. They got away with cannabis, they will easily get away with a plant that significantly fewer number of people care about.
innocentoldguy 10y ago
Having taken Kratom several times, I don't know what all the fluster is about. It worked as a mild stimulant for me (similar to coffee) and helped with headaches. That's about it. Maybe other people have had different experiences with it, but for me, Kratom is more along the lines of coffee and aspirin than it is marijuana (which I don't think should be outlawed either). I think people should actually experience the substance before allowing their knees to jerk with wanton abandon.
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  It is probably most similar to medium dose codeine. Which happens to be available over the counter in many formulations.
evincarofautumn 10y ago
In addition to its other uses, given the anecdotal reports of kratom’s usefulness in treating opioid addiction—which I’ve seen in a few close friends—I believe we have an ethical obligation to oppose this ban and encourage further research. I’ve never touched opioids before—a friend gaped when I told them that I threw away perfectly good Vicodin after getting my wisdom teeth out! But I have used kratom occasionally for a few months, and it’s been an incredible relief of nerve pain, anxiety, sleeplessness, and desire to drink alcohol. I hope that it continues to be available to people who need it much more than I do.
daveloyall 10y ago
The comments below this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12438979 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12438979 tell us why it is on Schedule I. For the uninitiated: Some experiences change your life. All schedule I substances might make a user quit their job. Period. That's what the list means. There are LOTS of things that will merely kill you which are NOT on the list... N.B. I have no idea what "Kratom", and "change your life" certainly doesn't always imply "for the better". Stay safe, kids, stay smart.
- fapjacks 10y ago
  Kratom allows people to become productive, taxpaying citizens with full time jobs that otherwise aren't able to. Look up the #iamkratom hashtag.
  - daveloyall 10y ago
    I think you misread my comment. I haven't tried the stuff and I'm not about to endorse something that I haven't tried. Moreover, there are things I do recommend but I still advise potential users to stay safe and be smart. Now back to my original point: there are things on the Schedule I list that can change people's lives. Some of the most interesting things on the list can, on first use, pull back the veil and allow the user to re-evaluate their most basic beliefs. My argument is that the establishment does not benefit from people doing that, when so many of their workers have BS jobs. The list might exist to protect the basic health and safety of our population, or it might exist to protect the status quo. You say this stuff is great? Well don't be surprised it's on the list, then! :)
    - fapjacks 10y ago
      I smell what you're cooking. There were enough negative comments in here that I had incorrectly presumed to lump yours in with them, and I'm sorry for that. I try not to talk too much about existing power structures and the "real" reason things happen (or don't happen), but that doesn't mean it isn't true, or more true than any other reason put forward.
spdustin 10y ago
I agree it's a knee-jerk reaction, but it seems that study is warranted rather than just praise. Seems like an interesting plant. From a November 2015 paper entitled "Following 'the Roots' of Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa): The Evolution of an Enhancer from a Traditional Use to Increase Work and Productivity in Southeast Asia to a Recreational Psychoactive Drug in Western Countries" [0] Note: reference numbers changed from original, and where appropriate, non-working or functionally empty URIs were replaced with working ones, "...findings show that regular kratom use is associated with drug dependency, development of withdrawal symptoms, and craving [1]. Many regular users declare their difficulty to abstain from kratom use and experiencing sharp unpleasant symptoms during abstinence periods [2]. Physical withdrawal symptoms include anorexia, weight loss, decreased sexual drive, insomnia, muscle spasms and pain, aching in the muscles and bones, jerky movement of the limbs, watery eyes/nose, hot flushes, fever, decreased appetite, and diarrhoea [3, 1]. Psychological withdrawal symptoms commonly reported are nervousness, restlessness, tension, anger, hostility, aggression, and sadness [4, 1]. Long-term addicts are described to become thin and have skin pigmentation on their cheeks, due to the capacity of mitragynine to increase the production of melanocytes-stimulating substance [4, 5]. Regular ketum use is also reported to cause psychotic symptoms such as mental confusion, delusion, and hallucination [4]..." [0]: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/968786/ https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/968786/ [1]: Search sci-hub for DOI: 10.1016/j.drugalcdep.2014.03.017 [2]: Search sci-hub for DOI: 10.1016/j.drugpo.2012.09.004 [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=t6IvPAAACAAJ https://books.google.com/books?id=t6IvPAAACAAJ [4]: https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bulletin_1975-01-01_3_page003.html https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bu... [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=qJS4AAAAIAAJ https://books.google.com/books?id=qJS4AAAAIAAJ
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  Correct. Which is why it should be classified, but somewhere around Schedule II, like other typically used natural opiates. E.g. Morphine and high dose codeine.
aidenn0 10y ago
Does anyone know why the DEA makes these decisions rather than the FDA? (Similarly why the USDA makes nutritional advice rather than the Surgeon general).
tribby 10y ago
DEA's primary objective is justifying its existence, so it's a bit surprising it didn't happen already. Terrible decision. Obama signed the Comprehensive Addiction and Recovery Act into law a few weeks ago, which has a $900MM budget over a few years. I'd wager a lot of that money will go to makers/marketers of Narcan and other suboptimal solutions. Kratom leaf has never killed anyone. Extracts have never killed anyone (there are few companies that do a supercritical CO2 extraction of mitragynine and 7-OHM). There were a few O-DSMT deaths misattributed to kratom, and IIRC a few more cases of people having kratom in their system while they died from something else. Because you can't OD on kratom, it's a tremendously powerful tool in harm reduction for recovering heroin addicts. This ban is a terrible decision that could easily lead to the death of those who turn back to the substances that kratom helped them kick. The most telling thing in this whole story is that salvia is still legal. Why? Because it's not competing with big pharma. Tangental but interesting bit of trivia: the American Kratom Association's executive director is Nancy Pelosi's son.
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  You probably can OD on Kratom, but overdosing caffeine is easier if you want to off yourself.

78 points by fapjacks 10y ago

Regardless of how you feel about drugs for personal use, enjoyment, or their health benefits, ask yourself: how would society benefit by putting these users in jail or setting them back financially? Do we have a Kratom problem? Have you ever even heard of Kratom before? Is continuing to put our resources into jailing otherwise-productive members of society the best way to use those resources?

exelius 10y ago
I think the idea is to go after the distributors and importers; not the end users. They're trying to prevent a commercial industry from growing around it before it starts (just like it did with the "synthetic marijuana" that we now know to be incredibly toxic). Also, Kratom is already illegal basically everywhere it grows because it does cause many of the same societal problems that other narcotics do. It is known to be chemically addictive and can cause death via overdose or through interactions with other drugs. While a knee-jerk schedule 1 classification is too harsh (I don't think we know enough about it to declare it as having no theraputic use); it certainly shouldn't go unregulated either. If you leave it unregulated, vultures with no regard for human life will swoop in and start marketing it as diet pills, herbal painkillers, etc. with few regards for its safety or effectiveness. If you regulate it early, you can prevent large amounts of it from flooding the market and start to educate people as to what it is before it becomes a problem. IMO it's specifically a problem because it's so unknown in the West that people will assume it's not dangerous.
- fapjacks 10y ago
  No, this is wrong. Thailand scheduled Kratom in the 1940s specifically because it was competing with their opiate trade. People use Kratom to wean themselves off of opiates. Additionally, Thailand is now considering removing the ban precisely because it doesn't have the same problems as drugs [0]. Now, what you've said about regulation I think is important, and something we need to look at. I do agree with that. There are unscrupulous suppliers of Kratom out there, and the deaths the DEA is talking about are mostly from bad suppliers spraying their Kratom with other opiates (most commonly O-Desmethyltramadol). The other deaths all involved mixing Kratom with other chemicals. [0] http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-09-17/thailand-s-cure-meth-addiction-leafy-jungle-stimulant http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-09-17/thailand-s-cure-meth-a...
  - eip 10y ago
    >Thailand scheduled Kratom in the 1940s specifically because it was competing with their opiate trade. Exactly the reason the DEA is banning it in the US.
- jMyles 10y ago
  > it does cause many of the same societal problems that other narcotics do This, and the evidence of the failure of prohibition of existing opiate and opiod drugs to mitigate those harms, is the best reason not to prohibit it.
- KitDuncan 10y ago
  1. You know synthetic marijuana only exists because of prohibition right? 2. I have never heard of a single death by Kratom overdose. I have heard of countless people kicking their opiate addiction with help of Kratom. I really don't know what to even say about your third paragraph.
  - exelius 10y ago
    I'm not arguing for prohibition (schedule 1). I'm saying that we should make it schedule 2 (which would allow federal funding for medical research), study it in detail (since it's a relatively un-researched drug) and come up with guidelines around how to use it safely. Your #2 is anecdotal evidence. Not saying it's wrong and that Kratom has no benefits; but this is exactly why more study is needed. In the meantime, we have to keep the snake oil salesmen at bay.
- jmcgough 10y ago
  There were 15 recorded cases of people dying from kratom from 2014-2016. To put that in perspective, 15,000+ people die each year in America from NSAIDs like aspirin, and from similar causes (taking massive amounts, preexisting conditions, mixing it with other drugs). The good that kratom is doing for people far outweighs its minimal dangers, which can be mitigated by educating people on how to use it safely.
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    A bunch of those deaths have been attributed to Kratom that was sprayed with opiates and other adulterants.
  - mbreese 10y ago
    You have a denominator problem. 15 recorded (likely underreported) cases of people dying, but how many people took it in that time frame? How many people fully knew the risks? Given the lack of quality control, how much was due to contaminates? Millions of people take aspirin each year and the risks are well known with NSAIDs and they are produced at a very high quality. The absolute numbers are very misleading without knowing the exposure rates. I don't take a position one way or the other on Kratom, because I don't know anything about it, but your argument is not very compelling from a statistical perspective.
    - glibgil 10y ago
      Maybe only 15 people took it and they all died. Should Schedule 1 classification be used for a drug that only 15 people want to take?
      - jmcgough 10y ago
        "From February 2014 to July 2016, over 55,000 kilograms of kratom material were encountered by law enforcement at various ports of entry within the United States. Additionally, another 57,000+ kilograms of kratom material offered for import into the United States between 2014 and 2016 are awaiting an FDA admissibility decision. Together, this material is enough to produce over 12 million doses of kratom." [1] Seizure rates are very low for drug shipments, so we're likely talking about about hundred of thousands of people who're using kratom, which has risen dramatically in the past year. [1] https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml https://www.dea.gov/divisions/hq/2016/hq083016.shtml
- novascotiabum 10y ago
  The reason Thailand banned kratom was because around the time their government was receiving taxes from opium. As kratom provides a way for opium addicts to get off of opium it seems they considered it a conflict of interest.Justice Minister Chaikasem Nitsiri is working to end the 70 year old ban on kratom in Thailand as well. link to an article about this can be found here: http://speciosa.org/Thailand-looks-to-legalize-kratom-justice-minister-chaikasem-nitsiri-is-pushing-senior-officials-to-end-a-70-year-old-ban-on-kratom-enacted-under-a-dubious-pretense-kratom-once-helped-opium-users-kic/ http://speciosa.org/Thailand-looks-to-legalize-kratom-justic...
- lnufnu 10y ago
  Kratom actually does not cause respiratory depression and there is doubt the powdered leaf (not concentrate) alone can causes death. It began to be used in place of opium in Malaysia starting in 1836. [1] It has already been on the market in the US for many years. It was researched by Smith, Kline & French (acquired by GlaxoSmithKline) and one of its alkaloids was patented in 1963. [2] It is aiding people in quitting opiates/heroin and is much easier to withdraw from. Companies sell it as botanical specimens, soap ingredients, and generally label it as not for human consumption and consumers understand what they are getting. There has not been a problem, aside from the contamination with O-desmethyltramadol and consumers mixing drugs. In fact, the CDC reported only one death in six years involving kratom, as well as paroxetine and lamotrigine. There are 16 deaths where kratom has been found in autopsy reports and 14 in the scientific literature. [3] Regulation is important. Users should be able to know that the product they are buying is safe and would probably like to know the alkaloid content, the same way marijuana strains are tested. Schedule 1 is not appropriate for this plant. It is going to encourage synthetic alkaloid production. In fact, PZM21 is being synthesized to be able to curb addiction without respiratory issues. [4] While this is great for addiction treatment, it is unfortunate that kratom will not be available for those who use it in place of opiates. If you are interested in the research that is available, someone has uploaded it all here: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B_SMhCuwVcKjZWxSRnA0QVFmOGc https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/0B_SMhCuwVcKjZWxS... 1. http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html 2. https://www.google.com/patents/US3324111 https://www.google.com/patents/US3324111 3. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/09/01/the-deas-crazy-kratom-ban-dresses-pharmacological-phobias-in-scientific-garb/#5e14fb7f4f86 http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/09/01/the-deas-... 4. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature19112.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu... In case it gets removed, here are individual links to the research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23725528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23725528 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23024321 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23024321 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20869223 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20869223 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23846544 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23846544 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24314525 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24314525 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25216455 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25216455 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25616583 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25616583 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25825913 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25825913 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3419199 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3419199 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323 https://www.google.com/patents/US8648090 https://www.google.com/patents/US8648090 https://www.google.com/patents/US8247428 https://www.google.com/patents/US8247428 https://www.google.com/patents/US20100209542 https://www.google.com/patents/US20100209542 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268515893_Marketing_a_Panic_Media_Coverage_of_Novel_Psychoactive_Drugs_NPDs_and_its_Relationship_with_Legal_Changes https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268515893_Marketing... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268183866_Molecular_cloning_and_characterization_of_strictosidine_synthase_a_key_gene_in_biosynthesis_of_mitragynine_from_Mitragyna_speciosa https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268183866_Molecular... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10428019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10428019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202507/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3202507/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018854 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018854 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482427 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482427 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-009-0070-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11419-009-0070-5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25950592 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25950592 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19536806 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19536806 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19294483 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19294483 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17882605 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17882605 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25081682 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25081682 http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://gradworks.umi.com/15/87/1587128.html http://www.americankratom.org/science http://www.americankratom.org/science
- JamesBarney 10y ago
  You have to remember the original cause of synthetic marijuana use was making safer options illegal. A large portion of people use Kratom instead of stronger more dangerous alternatives. Things like Vicodin, Oxycontin, and heroin. Regulating this will drive some users back to there harder alternatives, and there is no data that supports that this will make people safer. And it could make people less safe, not mention the issue with restricting adult's abilities to make decisions.
fapjacks 10y ago
If you look for #iamkratom and #savekratom hashtags around the web and read the stories and watch the videos, the worst part of this decision is the kinds of people it will affect. Grandmothers, disabled veterans (such as myself), taxpaying citizens providing for their families. This is not a drug and there is not an abuse problem. I do encourage anyone and everyone to do their own research, and look for the testimonials. The DEA's decision is a very poor one.
- zild3d 10y ago
  How can you claim this is not a drug? It has a physiological effect when ingested.
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    Well, cheese has a physiolocial effect when ingested. In fact, chemicals in cheese are known to bind to opioid receptors in our brains. But we don't call cheese a drug, do we? I think it's safe to say that Kratom isn't properly characterized as a "drug" in the same way that the DEA is characterizing it as a "drug".
    - metaphorm 10y ago
      people aren't eating it for its nutritional value. don't be ridiculous. it's being taken for medicinal purposes.
      - fapjacks 10y ago
        People aren't taking it to get high.
        20after4 10y ago
        Actually, some people _are_ taking it to get high. I have seen people use it to help with Opiate addiction, however, I have also seen people use it recreationally. A couple of capsules of ground up kratom leaf have effects similar to a low dose of Vicodin.

jMyles 10y ago

After the completely incorrect assessment of MDMA during the emergency scheduling process (ie, both attributing far more danger than was accurate and ignoring the substantial evidence of medical benefit in psychotherapy), we err'd by not immediately removing the emergency scheduling authority from the DEA. Now we're facing the consequences of continuing to allow this charlatan agency to continue to make scientific decisions.

mr337 10y ago
AKA protecting their budget
AstralStorm 10y ago
Even emergency powers of it should be limited to Schedule II. Schedule I is for things known to be highly detrimental and dangerous.
- jMyles 10y ago
  Schedule I is for substances with a high potential for abuse and no medical benefit. Even if we might disagree about the former, it's obvious that both MDMA and Kratom have incredible medical benefits.

civilian 10y ago

I wonder if the kratom community should have gotten infront of this. If you think the DEA is going to come down with the Emergency Schedule 1 hammer, then maybe it'd be better to take action to make it become Schedule 4 or 5. First impressions are important, if your group is the first one to talk to congress then you can control the narrative.

bitchypat 10y ago
Best of luck confronting the full force of the producers of caffeinated anything. Coffee, tea, soda, energy drinks. We could probably throw a handful of the pharmaceutical giants in there for good measure. Qui bono?
fapjacks 10y ago
We are mobilizing. We have email and phone call campaigns going, and the petition (which may be more useful than other petitions people have seen since it qualifies under the third condition under which this decision can be fought by the DEA). There is a national march in Washington DC on the 13th. We are trying.
- civilian 10y ago
  Thanks for the work! But I meant, get infront of this by advocating Kratom for schedule IV or V several years ago. Sorry, I'm being an armchair activist.
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    No, you're exactly right. We were a silent majority for all of these years, when we could have been putting out peace feelers before this became a problem. We could have been educating people.

elcct 10y ago

If it doesn't make sense, then there must be big money behind it. They got away with cannabis, they will easily get away with a plant that significantly fewer number of people care about.

innocentoldguy 10y ago

Having taken Kratom several times, I don't know what all the fluster is about. It worked as a mild stimulant for me (similar to coffee) and helped with headaches. That's about it. Maybe other people have had different experiences with it, but for me, Kratom is more along the lines of coffee and aspirin than it is marijuana (which I don't think should be outlawed either). I think people should actually experience the substance before allowing their knees to jerk with wanton abandon.

AstralStorm 10y ago
It is probably most similar to medium dose codeine. Which happens to be available over the counter in many formulations.

evincarofautumn 10y ago

In addition to its other uses, given the anecdotal reports of kratom’s usefulness in treating opioid addiction—which I’ve seen in a few close friends—I believe we have an ethical obligation to oppose this ban and encourage further research. I’ve never touched opioids before—a friend gaped when I told them that I threw away perfectly good Vicodin after getting my wisdom teeth out! But I have used kratom occasionally for a few months, and it’s been an incredible relief of nerve pain, anxiety, sleeplessness, and desire to drink alcohol. I hope that it continues to be available to people who need it much more than I do.

daveloyall 10y ago

The comments below this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12438979 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12438979 tell us why it is on Schedule I. For the uninitiated: Some experiences change your life. All schedule I substances might make a user quit their job. Period. That's what the list means. There are LOTS of things that will merely kill you which are NOT on the list... N.B. I have no idea what "Kratom", and "change your life" certainly doesn't always imply "for the better". Stay safe, kids, stay smart.

fapjacks 10y ago
Kratom allows people to become productive, taxpaying citizens with full time jobs that otherwise aren't able to. Look up the #iamkratom hashtag.
- daveloyall 10y ago
  I think you misread my comment. I haven't tried the stuff and I'm not about to endorse something that I haven't tried. Moreover, there are things I do recommend but I still advise potential users to stay safe and be smart. Now back to my original point: there are things on the Schedule I list that can change people's lives. Some of the most interesting things on the list can, on first use, pull back the veil and allow the user to re-evaluate their most basic beliefs. My argument is that the establishment does not benefit from people doing that, when so many of their workers have BS jobs. The list might exist to protect the basic health and safety of our population, or it might exist to protect the status quo. You say this stuff is great? Well don't be surprised it's on the list, then! :)
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    I smell what you're cooking. There were enough negative comments in here that I had incorrectly presumed to lump yours in with them, and I'm sorry for that. I try not to talk too much about existing power structures and the "real" reason things happen (or don't happen), but that doesn't mean it isn't true, or more true than any other reason put forward.

spdustin 10y ago

I agree it's a knee-jerk reaction, but it seems that study is warranted rather than just praise. Seems like an interesting plant. From a November 2015 paper entitled "Following 'the Roots' of Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa): The Evolution of an Enhancer from a Traditional Use to Increase Work and Productivity in Southeast Asia to a Recreational Psychoactive Drug in Western Countries" [0] Note: reference numbers changed from original, and where appropriate, non-working or functionally empty URIs were replaced with working ones, "...findings show that regular kratom use is associated with drug dependency, development of withdrawal symptoms, and craving [1]. Many regular users declare their difficulty to abstain from kratom use and experiencing sharp unpleasant symptoms during abstinence periods [2]. Physical withdrawal symptoms include anorexia, weight loss, decreased sexual drive, insomnia, muscle spasms and pain, aching in the muscles and bones, jerky movement of the limbs, watery eyes/nose, hot flushes, fever, decreased appetite, and diarrhoea [3, 1]. Psychological withdrawal symptoms commonly reported are nervousness, restlessness, tension, anger, hostility, aggression, and sadness [4, 1]. Long-term addicts are described to become thin and have skin pigmentation on their cheeks, due to the capacity of mitragynine to increase the production of melanocytes-stimulating substance [4, 5]. Regular ketum use is also reported to cause psychotic symptoms such as mental confusion, delusion, and hallucination [4]..." [0]: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/968786/ https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/968786/ [1]: Search sci-hub for DOI: 10.1016/j.drugalcdep.2014.03.017 [2]: Search sci-hub for DOI: 10.1016/j.drugpo.2012.09.004 [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=t6IvPAAACAAJ https://books.google.com/books?id=t6IvPAAACAAJ [4]: https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bulletin_1975-01-01_3_page003.html https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bu... [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=qJS4AAAAIAAJ https://books.google.com/books?id=qJS4AAAAIAAJ

AstralStorm 10y ago
Correct. Which is why it should be classified, but somewhere around Schedule II, like other typically used natural opiates. E.g. Morphine and high dose codeine.

aidenn0 10y ago

Does anyone know why the DEA makes these decisions rather than the FDA? (Similarly why the USDA makes nutritional advice rather than the Surgeon general).

tribby 10y ago

DEA's primary objective is justifying its existence, so it's a bit surprising it didn't happen already. Terrible decision. Obama signed the Comprehensive Addiction and Recovery Act into law a few weeks ago, which has a $900MM budget over a few years. I'd wager a lot of that money will go to makers/marketers of Narcan and other suboptimal solutions. Kratom leaf has never killed anyone. Extracts have never killed anyone (there are few companies that do a supercritical CO2 extraction of mitragynine and 7-OHM). There were a few O-DSMT deaths misattributed to kratom, and IIRC a few more cases of people having kratom in their system while they died from something else. Because you can't OD on kratom, it's a tremendously powerful tool in harm reduction for recovering heroin addicts. This ban is a terrible decision that could easily lead to the death of those who turn back to the substances that kratom helped them kick. The most telling thing in this whole story is that salvia is still legal. Why? Because it's not competing with big pharma. Tangental but interesting bit of trivia: the American Kratom Association's executive director is Nancy Pelosi's son.

AstralStorm 10y ago
You probably can OD on Kratom, but overdosing caffeine is easier if you want to off yourself.