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> It's valid, I believe, for the company to vet candidates for culture fit I don't really agree. I come from a traditional engineering background and consider

> It's valid, I believe, for the company to vet candidates for culture fit I don't really agree. I come from a traditional engineering background and consider myself a professional. As such, I expect to be judged on issues of professional decorum (i.e. what I would term an "asshole test"). That is part of culture, I suppose, but beyond that there should be no "fit" determination. This is especially true since this industry assumes people are going to be changing jobs every 2 - 3 years. I'm a professional; I adapt to my environment. Sure, I like and work in some better than others, but I can be effective and productive in almost any. Trying to optimize your hires for this while simultaneously complaining about talent shortages is counterproductive, and on some level dishonest.

ThrustVectoring 10y ago
It really depends on what "culture fit" means - lots of people have way different definitions. On the shitty side, there's people who mean something like "would I enjoy getting drinks with this person on a Friday night". On the actually reasonable side, there's "would I expect this person to use their initiative to find and solve problems while minimally supervised".
- seangrogg 10y ago
  I definitely use the "would I enjoy getting drinks" bar and I feel it's perfectly valid though - I'll admit - poorly worded. It really has nothing to do with actually wanting to get drinks with the person (I'd at least like to pretend I have a social life outside of work) but rather being perfectly comfortable talking with the person regardless of the social situation. Yeah, if you can do your work with minimal supervision that's gravy and stuff... but if I don't enjoy talking to you that's a huge communication red flag for me. And perhaps that's a communication flaw with me not being able to flawlessly interface with all human beings - but I'd much rather be working with the people I can level with regardless of the topic. Fortunately, most of my roles are of the "engineer" and individual contributor variety so my opinions on potential hires are often supplemental anecdotes rather than actual decisions.
  - eropple 10y ago
    Being able to "level with someone" who is not like you is a learnable skill. Given the studied and demonstrable bias towards cultural (human culture, not "tech culture"), racial, and gender similarity when selecting for fit, not doing so, and contributing to continued disparities and injustices within this industry and society at large, is immoral and unethical and you should stop. And it's foolish besides. You would "enjoy" talking to me, so long as I cared to play the game you want to play. There's no reason for that to continue once I've got the job (though at this point in my career I don't need to play your as monkey). The third rail in these discussions is that, in tech, it is very likely that I also look like you and it is very likely that I speak similarly enough to you. I get a free pass for a lot of things from that. My lack of "culture fit" is by choice, because I think tech culture is a tire fire of gross mentalities and I don't mind criticizing it. Others have an uphill slog that is not of their choice.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - seangrogg 10y ago
      I know it's a learnable skill, but being relatively laid back, easy-going, and generally amicable I don't feel a particularly strong need to further advance it in light of diminishing returns over unit time compared to other skills. As a brown liberal-republican with a military background and an education in psychology I am definitely just like every other techie in the Bay Area, of course, and I should stop leveraging my background because I'm obviously part of your unethical and immoral bell curve. I guess. I fail to see how it's my fault if you play mind games to get into my good graces. Most people adapt their persona to their situation in the first place - it's common to be a "different person" when you're with your family, your friends, and your coworkers. And given most of these positions are contractual... I guess it depends on how long you're looking for a job. I tend to be pretty ability-driven in my decision making process and rarely dismiss a person entirely because I don't "want to have drinks". But if they're not a personable individual maybe it's not me who has to do the growing for them, eh?
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  I suppose my definition of "professional" probably has different definitions from other people as well. I would expect the latter out of an experienced professional. I certainly have seen plenty of experienced people who would not do that, however.
endswapper 10y ago
There is a major difference between "culture fit" and the ability to adapt. Both serve a distinct purpose and both are valid. Someone's ability to adapt shows tactical proficiency. Particularly in an engineering environment I would put a high premium on tactical proficiency because the objectives are typically explicit and linear. Culture fit speaks to traits like open-mindedness, inclusion and confidence in leadership. These are less linear, but no less important. I would like to hear more from jcadam about the culture fit judgment he experienced. Was it really that you were not like them, or was it that you are from, and fit better with a different culture? Culture fit isn't about listening to the same music, or what you do on a Friday night. It's a less tangible, but collective agreement about purpose and objective. I am from the Midwest (Ohio), and I have worked in Manhattan and Los Angeles over a couple of decades at a couple of different companies. I am aware of a distinct difference between East and West coast culture and thinking, and likewise, Ohio culture and thinking. None of this is meant to judge superiority of any culture over another. Simply, if you are seeking to optimize an entire organization for the best possible results in working towards your objectives, culture fit is relevant.
- eropple 10y ago
  "Culture fit" doesn't mean "open-mindedness, inclusion, and confidence in leadership" (and if meant the third of those you'd be being taken for a ride--leadership doesn't deserve confidence, results must be substantiated and all "confidence" does is let a company's leadership abuse you). In my experience, what "culture fit" really means is merely "are they like me." It is a filter to remove women and (most) minorities because those people are harder for most (often white, usually young, overwhelmingly male) startup people to relate to. And this makes them uncomfortable, and discomfort is to be avoided because otherwise one might engage in introspection. Pass; no hire. I'm very good at passing such tests because I know how the kinds of people who think this is a good idea operate and what to feed them--by avoiding discomfort and self-introspection I think it's a lot easier to end up in a mental cul-de-sac that leads to being easily played. But knowing the game makes playing it even more gross, so I don't. (Things are better here on the East Coast than the Bay Area, but they're not good.)
  - 10y ago

ThrustVectoring 10y ago

It really depends on what "culture fit" means - lots of people have way different definitions. On the shitty side, there's people who mean something like "would I enjoy getting drinks with this person on a Friday night". On the actually reasonable side, there's "would I expect this person to use their initiative to find and solve problems while minimally supervised".

seangrogg 10y ago
I definitely use the "would I enjoy getting drinks" bar and I feel it's perfectly valid though - I'll admit - poorly worded. It really has nothing to do with actually wanting to get drinks with the person (I'd at least like to pretend I have a social life outside of work) but rather being perfectly comfortable talking with the person regardless of the social situation. Yeah, if you can do your work with minimal supervision that's gravy and stuff... but if I don't enjoy talking to you that's a huge communication red flag for me. And perhaps that's a communication flaw with me not being able to flawlessly interface with all human beings - but I'd much rather be working with the people I can level with regardless of the topic. Fortunately, most of my roles are of the "engineer" and individual contributor variety so my opinions on potential hires are often supplemental anecdotes rather than actual decisions.
- eropple 10y ago
  Being able to "level with someone" who is not like you is a learnable skill. Given the studied and demonstrable bias towards cultural (human culture, not "tech culture"), racial, and gender similarity when selecting for fit, not doing so, and contributing to continued disparities and injustices within this industry and society at large, is immoral and unethical and you should stop. And it's foolish besides. You would "enjoy" talking to me, so long as I cared to play the game you want to play. There's no reason for that to continue once I've got the job (though at this point in my career I don't need to play your as monkey). The third rail in these discussions is that, in tech, it is very likely that I also look like you and it is very likely that I speak similarly enough to you. I get a free pass for a lot of things from that. My lack of "culture fit" is by choice, because I think tech culture is a tire fire of gross mentalities and I don't mind criticizing it. Others have an uphill slog that is not of their choice.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - seangrogg 10y ago
    I know it's a learnable skill, but being relatively laid back, easy-going, and generally amicable I don't feel a particularly strong need to further advance it in light of diminishing returns over unit time compared to other skills. As a brown liberal-republican with a military background and an education in psychology I am definitely just like every other techie in the Bay Area, of course, and I should stop leveraging my background because I'm obviously part of your unethical and immoral bell curve. I guess. I fail to see how it's my fault if you play mind games to get into my good graces. Most people adapt their persona to their situation in the first place - it's common to be a "different person" when you're with your family, your friends, and your coworkers. And given most of these positions are contractual... I guess it depends on how long you're looking for a job. I tend to be pretty ability-driven in my decision making process and rarely dismiss a person entirely because I don't "want to have drinks". But if they're not a personable individual maybe it's not me who has to do the growing for them, eh?
vonmoltke 10y ago
I suppose my definition of "professional" probably has different definitions from other people as well. I would expect the latter out of an experienced professional. I certainly have seen plenty of experienced people who would not do that, however.

endswapper 10y ago

There is a major difference between "culture fit" and the ability to adapt. Both serve a distinct purpose and both are valid. Someone's ability to adapt shows tactical proficiency. Particularly in an engineering environment I would put a high premium on tactical proficiency because the objectives are typically explicit and linear. Culture fit speaks to traits like open-mindedness, inclusion and confidence in leadership. These are less linear, but no less important. I would like to hear more from jcadam about the culture fit judgment he experienced. Was it really that you were not like them, or was it that you are from, and fit better with a different culture? Culture fit isn't about listening to the same music, or what you do on a Friday night. It's a less tangible, but collective agreement about purpose and objective. I am from the Midwest (Ohio), and I have worked in Manhattan and Los Angeles over a couple of decades at a couple of different companies. I am aware of a distinct difference between East and West coast culture and thinking, and likewise, Ohio culture and thinking. None of this is meant to judge superiority of any culture over another. Simply, if you are seeking to optimize an entire organization for the best possible results in working towards your objectives, culture fit is relevant.

eropple 10y ago
"Culture fit" doesn't mean "open-mindedness, inclusion, and confidence in leadership" (and if meant the third of those you'd be being taken for a ride--leadership doesn't deserve confidence, results must be substantiated and all "confidence" does is let a company's leadership abuse you). In my experience, what "culture fit" really means is merely "are they like me." It is a filter to remove women and (most) minorities because those people are harder for most (often white, usually young, overwhelmingly male) startup people to relate to. And this makes them uncomfortable, and discomfort is to be avoided because otherwise one might engage in introspection. Pass; no hire. I'm very good at passing such tests because I know how the kinds of people who think this is a good idea operate and what to feed them--by avoiding discomfort and self-introspection I think it's a lot easier to end up in a mental cul-de-sac that leads to being easily played. But knowing the game makes playing it even more gross, so I don't. (Things are better here on the East Coast than the Bay Area, but they're not good.)
- 10y ago