6 ms·

I don't understand lumping gun shows in with the klan meetings. Can you elaborate on what you believe to be offensive about gun shows?

jacquesm 10y ago
Not the previous commenter but I'm not comfortable around a bunch of amateurs carrying and messing around with weapons. Professionals make enough mistakes with firearms, gunshows are a bad spot to be. https://www.google.com/search?q=gunshow+accident https://www.google.com/search?q=gunshow+accident
- gnarbarian 10y ago
  Thank you for answering my question. I understand that many people are uncomfortable around guns. As someone who frequents gun shows you piqued my interest in determining how dangerous they really are. The numbers are hard to pin down. But I tried to be as conservative as possible using the available stats. So if these numbers are wrong, chances are they are incorrect in your favor. The ATF stats state that there are approx 5000 gun shows per year and they generally have 2,500 to 15,000 [1] attendees. We could use the low estimate (2,500 * 5000) and it gives us 12,500,000 attendees. (many of these people probably go to multiple gun shows every year so this does not imply 12.5 M people went but some smaller number went to multiple shows). Using the dailykos's stat stating that for three years there have been around 1 gun show accident per month gives us 12 per year. [2] The chance the average person will be struck by lightening is 1 in 960,0000. [3] The chance of dying in a fatal car accident in the US in a given year are 1 in 11,000 [4] So, the chance of a gun show attendee who attends one show once per year getting shot (at a gun show) is actually 1,091 times smaller than the chance of dying in a car wreck in any given year. It's also less likely than being struck by lightening. It's important to not let media crazes influence your perceived risk of an event happening. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States#Venues_and_attendance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States... [2] http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/2/19/1276171/-First-gun-show-accident-of-2014-continues-avg-1-per-month-streak-into-3rd-year-GunFAIL-LVII http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/2/19/1276171/-First-gun-s... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_i...
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    You're assuming the people going to gunshows would never attend two or more shows per year and that they do not re-visit gunshows on alternate years either.
    - gnarbarian 10y ago
      I did mention that. " (many of these people probably go to multiple gun shows every year so this does not imply 12.5 M people went but some smaller number went to multiple shows)." #1) We're talking about on a given year here. and all my stats revolve around the risk of an event happening for a person over the course of a year. #2) Multiple visits increase the odds of being in an accident. because it's impossible to know how many people attended multiple shows. I am looking at attendees as an individual visit to a gun show. The risk factor showing the odds of being in an accident at a single visit to a single show are more meaningful anyhow. If you go to one gun show in a given year your odds are around 1 in a million for being involved in an accident. If you go to two your odds jump to 2 in a million. Get it?
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        I missed your () entry, apologies. And yes, I 'got it', there is no need to be condescending. Regardless of the stats, I'm still uncomfortable around amateurs with guns. Comfort and rationality are not always aligned.
        gnarbarian 10y ago
        I did not mean to be condescending. I was legitimately asking if you understood after rewording and explaining my conclusion. I didn't really expect to change your view. Education, familiarity, and practice often dispel the sense of anxiety someone feels around something they are not comfortable with. Learning to drive a car is one example of this. It's my hope that through reaching out to people who don't feel comfortable around guns and dispelling misconceptions in an even keeled way helps show that we aren't a bunch of reckless crazy rednecks engaging in sophistry to prove a point. I think it's important for everyone to reevaluate their assumptions regularly. Guns are dangerous, But if you are following the rules[1], it's nearly impossible to have an accident. The vast majority of legal gun owners follow these rules. [1] http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757990_-1_757978_757978_image http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Catego...
gregjor 10y ago
I didn't lump them together, I gave two examples. Irrelevant why I find gun shows uncomfortable. I've been to a few.
- gnarbarian 10y ago
  "I would feel uncomfortable at a KKK meeting or a gun show. But I could describe the real offensive behavior in those cases." I guess you can't describe the 'real offensive' behavior after all.
  - gregjor 10y ago
    You're missing the point. I can describe why I would find a KKK rally or a gun show offensive. That doesn't mean everyone would be offended, or uncomfortable about the same things. My point was about vague claims of "not feeling comfortable" at a conference with no explanation of what caused the discomfort. From what I've read there's no substance: Crockford didn't do anything, a few people made some vague claims about how they felt, not about anything Crockford did. It's one thing for me to say I don't like overt displays of racism and bigotry, or I get nervous around people carrying guns where Nazi "collectibles" are on display. It's another thing for me to try to ban a gun show or prevent people going because I'm uncomfortable with some aspect of it. Some people don't like spiders. I get it, although they don't bother me. But is it my problem to deal with someone's fear of spiders? Of course I wouldn't shove a spider in their face, but am I responsible for their terror if they see a spider in my garage? I am responsible for my feelings and how I react to them. I don't hold gun owners or Klan members responsible for how they make me feel.
    - gnarbarian 10y ago
      I got your point perfectly. You and I agree 100% regarding Crockford. As someone who loves guns and owns plenty, I honestly just wanted to know what you found so offensive about gun shows. You stated that you could describe the behavior and I obliged you. "... I get nervous around people carrying guns where Nazi "collectibles" are on display." That is all I wanted to know. Thanks.
baldfat 10y ago
Have you been to them? They are pretty scary with all the Nazi, and not so subtle racism. I have only been to them in the Northeast but they kind of feel like a Trump rally.
- gnarbarian 10y ago
  I go to them all the time. I love them. I have gotten some great deals there. I love seeing real WW2 guns and equipment regardless of which side.

jacquesm 10y ago

Not the previous commenter but I'm not comfortable around a bunch of amateurs carrying and messing around with weapons. Professionals make enough mistakes with firearms, gunshows are a bad spot to be. https://www.google.com/search?q=gunshow+accident https://www.google.com/search?q=gunshow+accident

gnarbarian 10y ago
Thank you for answering my question. I understand that many people are uncomfortable around guns. As someone who frequents gun shows you piqued my interest in determining how dangerous they really are. The numbers are hard to pin down. But I tried to be as conservative as possible using the available stats. So if these numbers are wrong, chances are they are incorrect in your favor. The ATF stats state that there are approx 5000 gun shows per year and they generally have 2,500 to 15,000 [1] attendees. We could use the low estimate (2,500 * 5000) and it gives us 12,500,000 attendees. (many of these people probably go to multiple gun shows every year so this does not imply 12.5 M people went but some smaller number went to multiple shows). Using the dailykos's stat stating that for three years there have been around 1 gun show accident per month gives us 12 per year. [2] The chance the average person will be struck by lightening is 1 in 960,0000. [3] The chance of dying in a fatal car accident in the US in a given year are 1 in 11,000 [4] So, the chance of a gun show attendee who attends one show once per year getting shot (at a gun show) is actually 1,091 times smaller than the chance of dying in a car wreck in any given year. It's also less likely than being struck by lightening. It's important to not let media crazes influence your perceived risk of an event happening. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States#Venues_and_attendance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States... [2] http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/2/19/1276171/-First-gun-show-accident-of-2014-continues-avg-1-per-month-streak-into-3rd-year-GunFAIL-LVII http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/2/19/1276171/-First-gun-s... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_i...
- jacquesm 10y ago
  You're assuming the people going to gunshows would never attend two or more shows per year and that they do not re-visit gunshows on alternate years either.
  - gnarbarian 10y ago
    I did mention that. " (many of these people probably go to multiple gun shows every year so this does not imply 12.5 M people went but some smaller number went to multiple shows)." #1) We're talking about on a given year here. and all my stats revolve around the risk of an event happening for a person over the course of a year. #2) Multiple visits increase the odds of being in an accident. because it's impossible to know how many people attended multiple shows. I am looking at attendees as an individual visit to a gun show. The risk factor showing the odds of being in an accident at a single visit to a single show are more meaningful anyhow. If you go to one gun show in a given year your odds are around 1 in a million for being involved in an accident. If you go to two your odds jump to 2 in a million. Get it?
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      I missed your () entry, apologies. And yes, I 'got it', there is no need to be condescending. Regardless of the stats, I'm still uncomfortable around amateurs with guns. Comfort and rationality are not always aligned.
      - gnarbarian 10y ago
        I did not mean to be condescending. I was legitimately asking if you understood after rewording and explaining my conclusion. I didn't really expect to change your view. Education, familiarity, and practice often dispel the sense of anxiety someone feels around something they are not comfortable with. Learning to drive a car is one example of this. It's my hope that through reaching out to people who don't feel comfortable around guns and dispelling misconceptions in an even keeled way helps show that we aren't a bunch of reckless crazy rednecks engaging in sophistry to prove a point. I think it's important for everyone to reevaluate their assumptions regularly. Guns are dangerous, But if you are following the rules[1], it's nearly impossible to have an accident. The vast majority of legal gun owners follow these rules. [1] http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757990_-1_757978_757978_image http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Catego...

gregjor 10y ago

I didn't lump them together, I gave two examples. Irrelevant why I find gun shows uncomfortable. I've been to a few.

gnarbarian 10y ago
"I would feel uncomfortable at a KKK meeting or a gun show. But I could describe the real offensive behavior in those cases." I guess you can't describe the 'real offensive' behavior after all.
- gregjor 10y ago
  You're missing the point. I can describe why I would find a KKK rally or a gun show offensive. That doesn't mean everyone would be offended, or uncomfortable about the same things. My point was about vague claims of "not feeling comfortable" at a conference with no explanation of what caused the discomfort. From what I've read there's no substance: Crockford didn't do anything, a few people made some vague claims about how they felt, not about anything Crockford did. It's one thing for me to say I don't like overt displays of racism and bigotry, or I get nervous around people carrying guns where Nazi "collectibles" are on display. It's another thing for me to try to ban a gun show or prevent people going because I'm uncomfortable with some aspect of it. Some people don't like spiders. I get it, although they don't bother me. But is it my problem to deal with someone's fear of spiders? Of course I wouldn't shove a spider in their face, but am I responsible for their terror if they see a spider in my garage? I am responsible for my feelings and how I react to them. I don't hold gun owners or Klan members responsible for how they make me feel.
  - gnarbarian 10y ago
    I got your point perfectly. You and I agree 100% regarding Crockford. As someone who loves guns and owns plenty, I honestly just wanted to know what you found so offensive about gun shows. You stated that you could describe the behavior and I obliged you. "... I get nervous around people carrying guns where Nazi "collectibles" are on display." That is all I wanted to know. Thanks.

baldfat 10y ago

Have you been to them? They are pretty scary with all the Nazi, and not so subtle racism. I have only been to them in the Northeast but they kind of feel like a Trump rally.

gnarbarian 10y ago
I go to them all the time. I love them. I have gotten some great deals there. I love seeing real WW2 guns and equipment regardless of which side.