39 ms·

Stepping down as Nodevember organizer

248 points by knes 10y ago

rhapsodic 10y ago
Hopefully, Nodevember will implode, and serve as an example to other organizations. The growing power of the hateful, vicious SJW cry-bullies will only be checked when caving to them becomes more costly than not caving to them. I hope Nodevember's corporate sponsors are flooded with complaints and boycotts over Nodevember's cowardly and shabby treatment of Crockford. Next year there will be few if any takers. I hope Nodevember's 2016 speakers will be subject to pressure to withdraw over Nodevember's actions. The potential downside of associating with Nodevember needs to be made far greater than any potential upside. These demented SJWs will take over the world if no one stands up to them.
- ben_jones 10y ago
  One of the bullies is actually a 'developer evangelist' at salesforce... I find that ironic.
  - dickbasedregex 10y ago
    Is 'developer evangelist' just the term for a sales rep who makes their personal crusade everyone's problem? Seems as much. Also, a terrible title. It induces eye rolling as much as rockstar or ninja.
jgrahamc 10y ago
The tweets go on to chastize the conference for being held at a “Christian university”. It is worth noting: I am a Christian. I would challenge that I am in the minority among most conference attendees. Be interesting to know if that last line is true.
- asplake 10y ago
  Would it matter either way? The "worth noting" rider risks obscuring the apparent deep irony of the first sentence
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- tnone 10y ago
  Probably, especially if you limit it to practicing Christians. You know the diversity brigade doesn't really want people like that to attend. This is starting to look more and more like someone's personal hangups turned into vendetta, using the nearest available excuses and target.
  - pluma 10y ago
    I'm atheist and think that religion is outright harmful so I'm somewhat aware of people's expressed or apparent religious beliefs. In my experience vocal Christians (as in: people mentioning Jesus, prayer or other church-related activities in person or on Twitter) are the minority, at least when it comes to JS conference speakers. So much so that they stick out as much as e.g. a Muslim wearing a hijab. That said, even as a "militant" atheist I wouldn't mind having a Christian university as the conference venue or having Christian speakers -- as long as they don't try to use the talk/event as a means to force their ideologies on others. If anything, I'd find it interesting, because it's a place and a kind of person I would not actively seek out otherwise (i.e. outside the technical/conference context). A few people I follow on Twitter or outspoken Christians or even Mormons. Yes, I find their religious gobbledegook annoying (but I'm sure they'd find my atheist rants equally unpleasant) but if they have enough interesting things to say otherwise, I'm willing to put up with that no matter how much it offends my sensibilities. I'd hope this is the norm, but apparently "diversity" these days often means "no disagreeable persons" and being a white Christian heterosexual cis-man is borderline offensive in itself.
  - youdontknowtho 10y ago
    Yeah, it's too bad that religion has been pushed underground in America. Maybe one day, if we are lucky, we'll 44 Christian presidents in a row. Diversity brigade? I grew up in a majority religious area. You can keep your indignation, friend. When religious people have the ability to, they get all kinds of "hung up" on "available excuses and targets".
- ajdlinux 10y ago
  Anecdata - out of the ~30 people on my team, there's about 4 or 5 practising Christians that I know of (myself being one of them). There's probably about the same number of "vocal, militant" atheists and most of the rest I strongly suspect are agnostic/atheist. I'm in a relatively "progressive" part of Australia - in the parts of the Australian tech community I'm involved with, I'd say that last statement is definitely true.
- throwanem 10y ago
  My experience suggests so. My experience also includes a case, at a very high-end tech company which I hesitate to name, where I saw a colleague derided as mentally ill, to her face, because she spoke of her faith without shame. Nobody seemed to see a problem with that. In such a light, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more Christians in the industry than are immediately obvious.
  - alessioalex 10y ago
    I'm not from the US, but Eastern Europe. We are more conservative, but in the recent years that's been my experience as well. If you speak about your religion you usually get shit on.
    - nazgob 10y ago
      Really? I get shit for being atheist in EE. I guess we two could co-exist normally ;)
- iuguy 10y ago
  I can't speak for Nodevember, but as far as I'm aware, we have one openly practicing Christian working on 44CON. Not sure how many in other conferences in the UK, but I expect the number to be smaller than the number of Atheists and Agnostics by far. Also in the UK the dominant sect of Christianity is Church of England, which in the UK is very casual compared to the Catholic church.
  - jgrahamc 10y ago
    Also in the UK the dominant sect of Christianity is Church of England, which in the UK is very casual compared to the Catholic church. Agreed. I was baptised in a CofE church etc. However, there are probably lots of people in the UK who have a vague connection to the CofE without calling themselves Christian. I was mostly interested in the number of practicing Christians in tech. My guess is those people keep their faith pretty quiet.
- swsieber 10y ago
  It probably is? Unless of course it's a smaller, local conference. In which case it would be representative of the local population. So expect a lot of Mormons in a Utah based conference. OTOH, I bet numbers are probably higher than you might think. Not every Christian is outspoken, and religion seems to be pretty openly hated on - I could see a large % of religious people just being quiet to avoid contention OR because they aren't really practicing.
- sjwright 10y ago
  I don't see how anyone's religion is any more important at a tech conference than which football team they follow. Neither football nor religion ever seem to get mentioned at any conferences I've attended. If someone is spending time at a tech conference intensely focused on how many people in the room happen to believe in the same god(s) as them, they might be the ones with the problem.
  - jgrahamc 10y ago
    I agree. I wouldn't want people doing that.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  So while a Christian University is willing to be accommodating to a tech conference without regards to anyones religious views the reverse of that is not true. This is in a tweet about inclusivity?
- ubertaco 10y ago
  Speaking as a practicing-Christian developer in the US "Bible Belt" area: my experience leads me to believe so, though mileage may vary by group. In the startup where I work currently, all 4 devs are practicing Christians/Catholics (myself included). In circles where I generally interact with other developers, (slack channels and in person), the assumption tends to be some form of irreligious/secular ideology, although generally those areas are more "true secular" -- that is, "sure, okay, believe what you want, that's your business." In the internet at large, I tend to get some form of condescension or general dismissal for mentioning my faith in anything but an almost-apologetic tone. But that's the internet, and frankly people can say whatever they want to me online. The thing that's more frightening to me is when that dismissal starts to cross from internet snark and jabs into active sort of "retribution" or (ironically) "witch hunts", trying to shut people's career opportunities down on the basis of their belief systems. Look, everyone has a worldview, because everyone observes the world around them and arrives at conclusions. And given how complex any given worldview must be when brought in contact with reality, and how many people there are in the world with such different realities and experiences, you're just not going to be on the same page as everyone. In fact, you're virtually guaranteed not to be on the exact same page as anyone. Intellectual and emotional maturity, at least in my view, requires the capability to look at another person's point of view and try to understand it -- and if you can't, then pare down to what's germaine to the subject at hand. I don't have to agree with my Muslim coworker about Jesus's divinity, but I do have to try to cooperate with him in deciding whether we should upgrade our codebase to Angular 2. I may want us to agree about Jesus's divinity (and indeed, for religious reasons I may believe this is my life's central issue -- which I do), but if I mention the subject to him, it should be in another context where such issues are more germaine, and it should be in a way that grants him the intellectual respect to decline the conversation and disagree with me. Just as I would not topically-hijack a work-focused meeting to try to convert my coworkers, I would hope not to be denied participation in such a meeting because of the unrelated issue of my beliefs.
okket 10y ago
Previous discussions, in chronological order: "In defence of Douglas Crockford" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420 (2 days ago, 407 comments) "Crockford" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12425061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12425061 (1 day ago, 95 comments) "Inclusivity Is a Joke" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12425353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12425353 (1 day ago, 203 comments)
NhanH 10y ago
> A suggestion to boycott the conference was made, because of suspicion that diverisity and inclusivity were not top priority. I don't have a reasonable word to describe this (ie. nothing better than name calling). So let's just say "I think it's not particularly reasonable for a tech conference to put anything besides tech to be top priority" is an understatement for me. That said, I want to note that any flak being shot should not be aimed at the organizer at all. The topic of "diversity" is slowly joining the rank of "What you can't say"[0] topic, and it takes a lot of work, courage and risk for an organizer to stand against an accusation like that. It's entirely reasonable for an organizer to drop a speaker under said circumstances, although they did botch the execution of removing a speaker pretty badly. What's unfortunate is that such action can be considered "reasonable", and the question of who to send flak to is left as an exercise for the sub-comment thread. [0]: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
- geldan 10y ago
  I don't think it's reasonable that the organizer not be held accountable. From this article: > By the time I’d received notice of the event unfolding on the evening of 2016-09-01, the decision was already made by the main organzier, swiftly and without discussion. > And in a moment of confusion, a poor decision was made to remove Douglas Crockford as a speaker, by the main organizer. Just because the organizer was put in a tough position doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for making the wrong decision.
  - NhanH 10y ago
    You can held them accountable the same way you held your junior developer accountable: it was a mistake, and they definitely could have done a lot better. Any blame wouldn't be unjustified. But what's the point and to what end? Edit: the point is that it's missing the root cause. People could always be better, smarter, doing the right thing, be omniscience. But most of us are not. Between a rock and a hard place... there is no good choice. For all they know, all of their other 47 speakers are not speaking in the alternative case.
    - 10y ago
Negitivefrags 10y ago
This whole saga is just painful to watch. It's the Super PC Crowd vs the Ultra PC crowd competing on who can moralize the hardest. Can't we just grow up and get some real work done?
- Bouncingsoul1 10y ago
  Splitter!
  - tnone 10y ago
    I hate these social judean warriors.
3princip 10y ago
If I understand correctly, the conference "de-platformed" Douglas Crockford because at some point in the past he made a joke about the internet being promiscuous? How utterly absurd. One should question the competence of these people to organize a technical conference. Irrational, childish behavior.
- youdontknowtho 10y ago
  There was also a presentation where he kept referring to testicles in various ways. "If you have the chicarrones you can learn monads in Haskell"... As per usual, there is more to it than is being discussed on this site.
- shard972 10y ago
  Seems completely reasonable to me. If people in the technology industry cannot move forward with society then they should be left behind.
  - matthewmorgan 10y ago
    it's the taboo-merchants who will be left behind
  - tobltobs 10y ago
    A joke about the internet being promiscuous means that the person cannot move forward with society? He even did say that being promiscuous was a good thing for the internet. And this whole thing seems to be completely reasonable to you?
    - chrisbennet 10y ago
      It wasn't a joke about the internet being promiscuous. Crock ford used the word "promiscuous" correctly and people (non-native speakers or uneducated perhap?) didn't know that the word has multiple meaning and took it the wrong way. It would be almost like using the word "catholic" but having it misinterpreted as "Catholic" and then taking offense.
  - 10y ago
eecc 10y ago
Seriously? I never imagined I'd see this slow-motion move towards the kind of bigotry and conservatism we're accustomed to blame theocracies of. Seriously, if "dog balls parens" and a metaphor involving "promiscuity" (sexual, I presume) is all that's needed to be toast, you're so badly f*cked it's not funny. at all
- adamors 10y ago
  Crockford said: > the Old Web was great because it provided promiscuity [0] and > promiscuous: indiscriminate; without discrimination [1]. It's just people getting offended for absolutely no reason. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w6tZEbrHIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w6tZEbrHIY [1]: from http://www.dictionary.com/browse/promiscuous http://www.dictionary.com/browse/promiscuous
  - tankenmate 10y ago
    Hyper-vigilance is quite often an ongoing response to PTSD. It would not surprise me if a large number of people who get so offended over the use of language no matter tenuous or non-existent are in fact reliving previous issues. Would it not be better that root cause are addressed; honest to goodness cases and their psychological fall out are dealt with so that whole conferences don't need to duck and run for cover every time a car backfires.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      > It would not surprise me if a large number of people who get so offended over the use of language no matter tenuous or non-existent are in fact reliving previous issues. I highly doubt that. There seems to be a great deal of deliberation behind these attacks always involving some self declared champion of 'rights' that is flexing their muscle in an underhanded game of power.
      - throwanem 10y ago
        I think it's a little of both. On the one hand you have people who really do have troubles and really could use a little kindness, and on the other you have people who are totally okay with cynically exploiting them and their troubles in order to acquire power. And if we're honest, people who've been abused already? Super easy to exploit. You don't even have to break them yourself! That's already taken care of. Do I sound bitter? Perhaps I sound bitter. I was going for savage sarcasm, but maybe I've overshot and landed in bitter. I've seen this dynamic play out to completion once, with homosexuals like myself in the role of foil. Now I'm seeing it play out again, this time on the backs of people whose uniting characteristic is having gone through hell at the hands of others, in many cases at the hands of people whom they should have been safely able to trust. Now they get to be used all over again, at the hands of people claiming to want to help - indeed claiming, implicitly or otherwise, to be the only ones who can effectively help, a classic abuser's trick in itself. In the face of such enormities, perhaps I may be forgiven a bitter moment here and there, shameful though they nonetheless be.
Mao_Zedang 10y ago
The left always eat their own.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  We can't help it if we are delicious and good to eat. The right are bitter and tough to chew on. It's an obvious culinary preference that drives us.
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  Define "left". I don't have a definition either, I don't like or use the word, but I know there have been and are people that I adore and agree with on many things who probably would be labelled that way, and all of them would spit out what you seem to consider "left". One example: > Do not preach the straight and narrow way while going joyously upon the wide one. Preach the wide one, or do not preach at all; but do not fool yourself by saying you would like to help usher in a free society, but you cannot sacrifice an armchair for it. Say honestly, "I love arm-chairs better than free men, and pursue them because I choose; not because circumstances make me. I love hats, large, large hats, with many feathers and great bows; and I would rather have those hats than trouble myself about social dreams that will never be accomplished in my day. The world worships hats, and I wish to worship with them." > But if you choose the liberty and pride and strength of the single soul, and the free fraternization of men, as the purpose which your life is to make manifest then do not sell it for tinsel. Think that your soul is strong and will hold its way; and slowly, through bitter struggle perhaps the strength will grow. And the foregoing of possessions for which others barter the last possibility of freedom will become easy. > At the end of life you may close your eyes saying: "I have not been dominated by the Dominant Idea of my Age; I have chosen mine own allegiance, and served it. I have proved by a lifetime that there is that in man which saves him from the absolute tyranny of Circumstance, which in the end conquers and remoulds Circumstance, the immortal fire of Individual Will, which is the salvation of the Future." - Voltairine de Cleyre If you say a little candle (or even just one that is fake and painted on) is the sun, that just means you don't know what the sun is. Keep looking maybe, or keep rationalizing your inertness to those who would fall for it.
erlich 10y ago
It truly warms my heart to hear this! I'm so glad people are fighting back against political correctness. We're all just trying to get work done, and we have to put up with this constant background noise. Checking in once in a while to see what language is now deemed inappropriate to avoid chastization by some Twitter white knight legion. Its the ultimate bikeshedding.
- skywhopper 10y ago
  Getting stuff done requires working with people. Working with people requires basic manners including a willingness to be polite. Sure, a lot of requirements of manners are often irrational and make little or no sense to the technically minded. But it's the cost of participating in society. Whining about not being able to say certain words is about the least productive thing you can do, and makes you appear to prioritize your desire to be a jerk over getting things done. So let's get some work done and stop whining about how we might have to think about other people and consider the impact of our words.
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    > Whining about not being able to say certain words is about the least productive thing you can do, and makes you appear to prioritize your desire to be a jerk over getting things done. It's more about not wanting to "walk on eggshells". I don't want a speaker to spend >1/2 of his time prepping for the political side of a presentation. I want a speaker who spends the majority of his time on the technical details. If you want to "get stuff done", sure, sometimes you have to be more polite than you want. But the other side of the coin is that you also have to be thick-skinned. If every little thing "offends" you, then you are not going to get any work done either, and your actively preventing others from doing so.
  - ori_b 10y ago
    > Getting stuff done requires working with people. Working with people requires basic manners including a willingness to be polite. Getting stuff done requires working with people. Working with people requires basic tolerance, including a willingness to ignore different political viewpoints, jokes that fall flat, and different cultures and communication styles.
forgottenacc56 10y ago
So it's because a religious person felt uncomfortable about a non religious person (Crockford presumably)?
- pluma 10y ago
  No, it's because a feminist felt uncomfortable about a non feminist.
  - dlmetcalf 10y ago
    Specifically an intersectional feminist. It's worth observing that Crockford's own intersections are that he's older, white, cis-male, an authority figure; which ticks just about every box for being an intersectional feminist enemy. Wouldn't be surprised if there's a fair bit of ageism, racism, sexism, heterophobia behind this, for him not being 'diverse' enough.
    - sjwright 10y ago
      Indeed. And apparently, according to these people, we must hold Douglas responsible for being an old white male. It's his fault! He should have known better and been a young black woman instead. Obviously.
meritt 10y ago
It's amusing how strongly the Node community strives to be "inclusionary" when comes to race/gender/orientation/religion/etc but when someone presents dissenting technical ideas or thinks an implementation is wrong, they might as well be crucified for voicing such blasphemy.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  Being crucified for blasphemy seems a might ironic.
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    Well, the original meaning of crucifixion merely is to have a very punishing (and very public) form of capital punishment. The religious meaning was added on top of that, and it isn't actually the crucifixion itself, but the person who died and that he did so. The method itself isn't the focus.
  - PeterisP 10y ago
    Well, the biblical crucifixion was for blasphemy, so it's kind of a usual reason to do it.
- sleepychu 10y ago
  I don't think that'll ultimately help Node but I don't see a problem with an opinionated language/framework from a technical point of view. Feel free to hold whichever extreme technical standpoints you wish. The problem is when we fail to embrace people who are technically strong because of their race/gender/religion/sexual orientation, these are all clearly bad metrics to judge technical ability by.
- ageofwant 10y ago
  I have noticed that the most self identifying "progressive left" people are some of the most intolerant individuals I've ever had to deal with. They are extraordinarily dismissive of any "non-aligned" viewpoints, they are miniature despots. I would hate for any of those to have any real power over other people's lives. Being tolerant is being OK with other people being "wrong".
aub3bhat 10y ago
It's in scenarios like these that in spite of the slow & tedious peer review process I am thankful that IEEE / ACM research conferences exist. Those are the places that truly strive to be inclusive by enforcing peer review and often double blind processes, where technical merit alone being the deciding factor. There are no calls to disinvite authors because of the beliefs held by them. Researchers from China, Russia, Middle east who likely do not subscribe to the same "progressive" ideas, can still participate purely on basis of the technical merit of their work. That to me is real inclusivity. These new "cons" with their long list of rules are not about inclusivity but rather about imposing cultural hegemony.
- dozzie 10y ago
  > Those are the places that truly strive to be inclusive [...] where technical merit alone being the deciding factor. This is not "striving to be inclusive", it's "striving to be technical". Which is a good thing for technical conference. You don't want to include minority just to include minority, you want to have best talks possible without regard of being given by minority or not.
  - skywhopper 10y ago
    Having someone other than the typical speaker on stage actually has enormous value. It's not true that there is an objective way to judge the value, even the technical value, of a presentation, particularly before it is given. So while saying "we want the best technical talks" sounds good, refusing to consider other factors actually works against minorities who -- no matter how blind and merit-based _your_ approval process may be -- often face innumerable other disadvantages in getting to where they are, including an overwhelming lack of role models in places like technical conferences.
    - gregjor 10y ago
      On the one hand I agree with you: some people face disadvantages and don't see role models, in tech conferences and other contexts, like actual jobs. On the other hand that isn't fixed by buckling to vague accusations, attempts to ostracize supposed offenders, or enforcing rules of behavior that restrict who people are. Bias and exclusivity are real problems in tech conferences, in the industry as a whole, and in real life. Changing social norms has to be an organic process, not a battle of grievances and petty punishments and social media smearing. I've been to conferences where people I don't want to listen to are speaking. I just don't go to their presentations. I'd like to think that when I pay to attend a conference the speakers and topics are chosen for relevance and quality. I'd also like to believe that everyone has an equal chance to get on the speaker list, by considering what they have to offer and how well they can present it, and not considering their personal disadvantages. We all have personal disadvantages, and favoring some over others changes worthwhile goals (respect, opportunity, inclusion) into bickering and vindictiveness.
minork 10y ago
Someone mistook Mr. Crockford for Brendan Eich and fired away some tweets.
- throwanem 10y ago
  Would it have been okay if it were Eich?
  - hoodoof 10y ago
    In the U.S., anyone "guilty" must be driven into the ground for the rest of their life, having forfeited everything.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - minork 10y ago
    http://projects.latimes.com/prop8/donation/8930/ http://projects.latimes.com/prop8/donation/8930/
    - throwanem 10y ago
      I didn't ask about his politics.
      - minork 10y ago
        I don't know. You tell me? At least there is something in the public history about Eich that could offend someone. But to accuse someone in public of something and not be public about what, naaa, that's not ok.
        throwanem 10y ago
        So it's purely a transparency issue?
deleted 10y ago
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LoneWolf 10y ago
Can someone explain to someone who has not been following this (me) what happened in a short way, all I find are huge posts and I can't spare the time unfortunately.
- geowwy 10y ago
  Douglas Crockford is a grumpy old man who has a history of making politically incorrect jokes. There are a handful of inclusivity activists who campaign against him because of that. The main Nodevember organiser recently dropped Douglas Crockford as a speaker. No one knows why because they haven't properly explained themselves. But presumably it's because they're sympathetic to (or scared of) the inclusivity activists. This is part of a wider battle between inclusivity activists and their critics, hence the controversy.
  - dlmetcalf 10y ago
    'is allegedly a grumpy old man who had allegations made about him that he has a history of making politically incorrect jokes.' Definitions of correctness vary. Saying "history" may also suggest it's some kind of consistent pattern. A huge part of the real issue also seems to be, that on inspection, not very much was found at all.
  - LoneWolf 10y ago
    Thank you so much, I am getting tired of these inclusivity activists that want to force the list of speakers to be representative of every religion, ethnicity, etc. No I have no problems with the speakers being of any specific ethicity or whatever. The speakers at conferences should be invited by merit or because they can give a good talk about a subject relevant, not just the sake of diversity, I will not care if the speaker is a woman, man, straight or gay, if I go to a conference it is because of the theme not because it has representation of every ethnicity etc.
    - geowwy 10y ago
      I'm going to differ on this. I 100% support inclusivity. I really, really like my job and I know activists have the power to destroy my career. Therefore I'm doing like Scott Adams[1] and supporting inclusivity, because it's safer for my career if I do. [1] http://blog.dilbert.com/post/145456082991/my-endorsement-for-president-of-the-united-states http://blog.dilbert.com/post/145456082991/my-endorsement-for...
etangent 10y ago
At this point, it would be desirable if people started actively boycotting Nodevember. I understand that quite many individuals in the Node community may be in favor of the decision to exclude Crockford, but I also suspect that there is a significant amount of people (if judging only by the responses in this thread) who very much dislike that decision. A concerted effort to boycott the conference, even if done by a minority, would set a precedent and send a very clear message that such arbitrarily rude behavior on the part of the organizers will not be tolerated in future events like this. A boycott would also pressure the organizers to either "put up or shut up" regarding the evidence surrounding Crockford's dismissal. There is a very good chance [1] that this is a personal vendetta happening rather than any ethical misdeed done on Crockford's part. If so, a move to boycott the conference would benefit not only the liberal side, but also the "politically correct" (for lack of better words) side, as nobody is interested that their political movement be hijacked by people seeking personal/egotistic goals [2]. If, on the other hand, Crockford was indeed dismissed due to political motives, there is still a decent chance that the evidence against him is extremely weak (hence reluctance to present it). Such a situation would also benefit both sides, in the sense that it would teach them a valuable lesson that persecuting people is not something that should be undertaken lightly. There are other JavaScript conferences happening this year [3]. Go to those instead. Encourage your friends to do the same. --- [1] See Tim Hunt's case for an example of a similar situation where the evidence against an individual later turned out to be mostly made up of thin air. https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/the-timothy-hunt-witch-hunt/ https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/the-timothy-hunt... [2] Per conversation with the organizer, he had admitted to having "a long and storied history" with D. Crockford, which further corroborates the possibility of personal vendetta. https://twitter.com/getify/status/772413034773909504 https://twitter.com/getify/status/772413034773909504 [3] https://github.com/prigara/javascript-conferences https://github.com/prigara/javascript-conferences
- ageofwant 10y ago
  Absolutely. I will not willingly associate myself with the Nodevember cabal, and neither should any other reasonable and tolerant progressive.
  - 10y ago
hasenj 10y ago
What is this nonsense? Why do conference organizers need to care about finding speakers to represent fat people, for example? Is this really a tech conference?
- nowprovision 10y ago
  We also need to consider left handed people are equally and fairly represented, for too long the privileged and dominating right handies have over-run these conferences.
  - DigitalSea 10y ago
    Can't forget the left hand vegan aesthists as well. I hope they're being represented at this conference as well.
    - ben_jones 10y ago
      I'm gluten free. Am I to believe there are no gluten free options available at the conference?!
      - nowprovision 10y ago
        In response to your concerns we took a closer look at our speakers' dietary preferences.. I have good news.. In addition to adding 3 new gluten-free keynote speakers (To be announced) we removed a speaker that does not align with our mission of equally representing gluten-free. This a community conference to support collaboration among developers with different dietary preferences and we want ALL developers to feel comfortable with the dietary preferences of all our speakers particularly our keynoters. I apologise this action took 4.1 minutes to cement.We had to formulate the tweets first..
  - CM30 10y ago
    Dont't forget a diverse mix of opinions, religious or political beliefs! Like more conservatives, religious folk or people with controversial viewpoints not currently represented! Oh wait. The people wanting this stuff only care about diversity of appearance, not diversity of thought.
hanoz 10y ago
Competitive political correctness is a difficult and high stakes game at the best of times, but this lot are so ultra inclusive that they included JavaScript on the server side. I wouldn't get involved.
- ageofwant 10y ago
  I sometimes troll through the comment dross in the forlorn hope of finding rare gems like this. Hat tip good Sir.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    Heavens only knows what would happen if they invite Crockford back. If he was feeling mean-spirited he could switch his talk to the correct use of semicolons in JavaScript code.
- jsmthrowaway 10y ago
  Sheesh, you could have made that joke without the unnecessary jab at political correctness, you know. Why drag PC into it? (surprisingly necessary edit: /s)
  - gadders 10y ago
    Because it is what caused this issue?
    - deleted 10y ago
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dunkelheit 10y ago
This just confirms the old principle that anything taken to the extreme turns into its opposite. If you fight for inclusivity, prepare to exclude people. If you strive to make everyone comfortable, prepare to face some very uncomfortable situations.
- exclusiv 10y ago
  Agreed. I find it both amusing and disturbing to watch things like this unfold. This event seems completely unfounded but even if it had merit, we'd still have a paradox of tolerance [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- czzarr 10y ago
  Aristotle said virtue sits at the middle of two extremes. That was thousands of years ago.
- CM30 10y ago
  Or in other words, like what some people describe as 'horseshoe' theory. Extremists on either side of the spectrum in any subject end up seeming very similar to one another in their views. You can see it in how segregation seems to be making a comeback on college campuses, albeit with social justice types calling for it instead of KKK esque bigots.
grabcocque 10y ago
I still don't understand what it is that Crockford is supposed to have done. I mean, I've heard him speak: he's insufferable and obnoxious and self-righteous. But is that enough to earn a no-platforming these days? Cripes.
- cs02rm0 10y ago
  He's not supposed to have done anything tangible, at least as far as anyone has shown to be the case. Just some vague handwaving in his direction. There's speculation he's sometimes a bit grumpy and curt, made some jokes about people not wanting to use weak maps and promiscuity in respect of internet connected devices which could be at the root of this, but you'd have to be professionally offended to find issue there. Ultimately these days it seems there are people who go looking for reasons to be offended, or be offended on behalf of others. Naturally, they find what they're looking for. It's a shame this has affected people who just want to discuss technology without prejudice, even if they are javascript developers.
- douche 10y ago
  From what I can gather, he made a correct technical statement, and also a joke about pork rinds, that some have decided was actually about testicles.
- aikah 10y ago
  He didn't do anything, some "developer evangelist" doesn't like him, write a blog-post on medium and got him de-invited. He didn't do anything at all. These are the facts, now my opinion: Nothing happened but the Nodevember organizers feared being labelled sexist themselves so they caved to that "developer evangelist" pressures. It back fired. It is grotesque and shameful.
thisdotwat 10y ago
Holy cow, HN. Get this less. Hey, hiring managers: I'm a woman with 10+ years engineering experience and great references. I'm working on leaving the tech industry because this crap isn't getting better fast enough. I'll work for literally any company that pays half decently and puts a real priority on empathic communication. Email's in my profile. Wait, no it isn't-- I'm closing this tab and not looking back, and I definitely don't want any of these people to know my email address. Thanks for sticking up for me.
- tnone 10y ago
  Empathic is a preference, and judging from your post, one you'd apply selectively and one way. We're the people _you_ don't want to work with, because our communication style is different. Nobody's required to stick up for you, your attempts at shaming not withstanding.
- exclusiv 10y ago
  Your comment shows a real issue at hand - that many people are so quick to be activists that they don't even need a real story to run with it. Perhaps you've experienced some real issues in the past, but you're undermining your own (and the industry's) cause if you believe: - uninviting Douglas was justified - that the event's process in doing so was reasonable - that scheduling speakers based on their body size or religion makes any sense while at the same time chastising another religion for being affiliated with the host university - that publicly shaming event organizers because you don't have a "preference" (especially an unsubstantiated one) for another speaker is ok
nowprovision 10y ago
I think Mx Kevin is quite right to step away from this grand mess, it sounds like this all could of been avoided if the main organizer spent more than 41 minutes in deliberating what action to take when a hypersensitive social justice warrior started venting on Twitter. Complete dog balls..
- sjwright 10y ago
  Your reference to dog balls makes me feel uncomfortable.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    Quick, someone prohibit talk of dog balls in the CoC!
    - nowprovision 10y ago
      All in time.. I'm expecting the banishment first..
oellegaard 10y ago
When I started as a developer, I didn't care who I talked to if I thought they could contribute something interesting. I wouldn't care what religion, gender or country they were from - I was just interested in learning. I recently stopped going to tech conferences. I don't want to go to gender/sexuality/religion/you name it-equality conferences and it seems like thats the main topic in all tech conferences these days. Can someone bring back the technical discussions and throw out the bullies?
- Balgair 10y ago
  >Can someone bring back the technical discussions and throw out the bullies? -"The Tale of the Interwebz"
DigitalSea 10y ago
The whole situation is just ridiculous. SJW's have well and truly infiltrated the Javascript community. The Paul Straw linked post really highlights how silly this situation is. A few comments taken completely out of context and because some people took them the wrong way, things spiralled out of control. I personally am not a fan of Douglas Crockford, but my views of him personally don't override the fact that he did nothing wrong in this situation. He should not have been un-invited to the conference. Their loss, Crockford is a smart guy and a huge drawcard for an event like this. Now we get to listen to a bunch of twenty-somethings talk to us about a language that Crockford was pioneering when they were still in school.
deleted 10y ago
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hoorayimhelping 10y ago
>Each of these were most likely represented. That's what this is all about. It's not about being diverse, it's about ticking off a list of checkboxes to make sure every group that some moral authority thinks needs to represented is properly represented.
kyrre 10y ago
this crockford business is even more stupid than the eggplant issue. glad to see ordinary, decent people are fighting back.
- haneefmubarak 10y ago
  What was the eggplant issue...?
  - aikah 10y ago
    I searched on google I found this : https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3syfzb/socjus_github_project_nodejs_bans_user_for/?st=isrrahay&sh=3d34c693 https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3syfzb/socj... It might be about it since it's the same people that kicked out CrockFord from Nodevember. I have no opinion about this specific matter nor endorse what is said in this thread, but it looks like it is related to "EmilyRose", the same person that wrote a blogpost on medium saying how CrockFord made her feel unconfortable which led to the situation at hand.
youdontknowtho 10y ago
It seems that there is wide agreement on this site on a lot of subjects. Often I just find it boring and hit "hide". Your opinions on Microsoft. Your libertarian beliefs. Your insular and weird fixations on "perfect" technologies that were suppressed by larger forces often sound like the worst conspiracy theories ever. (I mean seriously, at least make the villain a lizard or something.) But this has become really cultish. If you think that attempts to keep sexual language out of presentations* is some how on par with the actual intolerance that is being practiced in many states in the union these days, you need to get out more. It's just not. I wonder how so many iconoclasts and independent thinking "disruptors" wind up thinking exactly alike? It's also funny how all of you think that you are being oppressed when you are part of one of the most privileged classes in a very privileged country. I wrote a long comment yesterday in one of these Crockford posts where I tried to honestly explain why things might not be the way you think they are. Claiming to be purely meritocratic really ignores the power relationships in society. but you have to be willing to consider that you might be wrong on this or anything...and believe me, that's not something that this group is readily capable of. I really need to write something that scrapes the links off of this and a couple of other sites and sticks them in a feed. Comments are really bringing me down and I can count on one hand the number of times that I've found something interesting. My weakness? Trying to convince people of something...I shouldn't even try anymore. *"If you have the chicarrones you can learn monads in Haskell"...from the presentation "Monads and Gonads"
afandian 10y ago
There's a strong movement for Codes of Conduct at conferences. It's a very good idea. How about a CoC for conference organisers? Some minimal level of professionally? The official statement: > This conference was started by a group of friends to gather around the love of a shared language and community. > We are in over our heads. http://nodevember.org/statement.html http://nodevember.org/statement.html Is zero excuse. Don't organise a conference if you can't organise a conference. If Codes of Conduct are meant to protect attendees from incumbent inequalities and prejudices, what hope do we have if the organisers behave like an old boys club who keep out people that aren't like them?
- DonHopkins 10y ago
  The need to be more agile about unit testing their codes of conduct stakeholders.
gadders 10y ago
Another win for the SJWs.
sklivvz1971 10y ago
I've written a few thoughts inspired by this brouhaha. Mostly: diversity and inclusivity need empathy and compassion to be worth having. And some wise advice on this by Kurt Hahn. http://sklivvz.com/posts/diversity-being-comfortable-and-ten-good-principles http://sklivvz.com/posts/diversity-being-comfortable-and-ten... I'd welcome respectful feedback.
wayniac 10y ago
People just need to start standing up to these SJW people. They are literally infesting everything: Colleges, workplaces, open source, everything. They act like bullies whenever someone says something they disagree with, even calling for open retaliation across social media because they have no understanding of the real world. What is worse is that more and more people are actually catering to them out of fear instead of standing up and saying "Look, you're an adult. Act like one instead of a kindergartener who missed their nap. People are going to say things you don't like or don't agree with; shut your mouth and learn to live with it". Instead, we get things like this that juts reinforce the SJW belief that they are pure and right and that everyone needs to do what they say. It's really pathetic.
- CM30 10y ago
  Isn't that what GamerGate was basically about? Well, at least in part anyway. But the issue with standing up to them (however necessary it might be) is that such individuals have a tendency to play the victim a lot and get quite a bit of the media to rally around them every time someone calls them out. It's hard to call out cases like this when the inevitable media coverage will be 'Javascript conference harassed by internet trolls over Douglas Crockford's invite'.
  - wayniac 10y ago
    Perhaps but at the same time I think some blame lies on the conferences that try to cater to these folks instead of telling them to grow up and act like adults. You're right though, the SJW crowd loves to play the victim card and cry racism/sexism/oppression whenever someone doesn't cater to them. If the conference had been like no we aren't doing it, the person who complained would have likely blogged/tweeted/etc. about how the conference is sexist and "problematic" because they aren't listening to her (pretty sure it was a woman) and are therefore engaging in rape culture or whatever stupid nonsense these people peddle.
  - aikah 10y ago
    > that such individuals have a tendency to play the victim a lot and get quite a bit of the media to rally around them every time someone calls them out Of course, they know how things work, they'll accuse you of racism, sexism, misogyny, transphobia and ruin your career that's what they do.They know they need no proof and let the internet "be judge", that's what dangerous with these people. If you dare call them out your career is finished, they have a real power of nuisance, wrapped in "virtue" with leitmotives such as "inclusivity" and "diversity". Newspeech at its finest. It's just a power grab game, and they are eliminating the competition with politics since their skills are mediocre.
chippy 10y ago
It seems like most comments here (and in previous times this has been discussed) are avoiding the actual reason why Crockford was disinvited - it is because a number of speakers said they would be uncomfortable with him speaking and would not speak and attend the conference. The comments appear to be looking for facts, reasons, examples of past behaviour of Crockford to see if these facts can justify the decision. HN'ers are looking to understand the reasons why someone has an emotional response. That is the reason - from http://nodevember.org/statement.html http://nodevember.org/statement.html : "that his presence would make some speakers uncomfortable to the point where they refused to attend or speak.". Instead of addressing this point, we generally are looking for concrete, binary, true and false examples. So it's harder for me to see how his past behaviour makes me uncomfortable. But I also can understand how it can possibly make other people uncomfortable. How should any conference deal with speakers being uncomfortable with things? How can comfort be increased for all? How can a small conference defend against accusations of uncomfortableness? What would the best way to do this be? Personally, I don't think "well I'm comfortable, so it's okay" would be an acceptable response. So, working towards an answer to my own questions, instead of looking for logical reasons, and responding coldly, we should look towards emotion, and respond in kind: "Please be welcome here, we will have separate speaker lounges, multiple places to interact and speak with each other. Many people from a wide range of backgrounds will be attending. It will be our priority to ensure you, and everyone can feel safe and welcome and have an enjoyable time at the conference. We are a group of local friends putting on a great conference about a topic we all like, we arn't a soulless corporate conference. We are approachable and thanks for trusting us and feeling like you can approach us with your concerns." Respond with reassurance, comfort, trustworthiness, essentially more PR and less rationality (and I would suggest that if they did that, the speaker wouldn't need to have been removed)
- Noseshine 10y ago
  > Instead of addressing this point What point? Their only is this extremely vague statement. How do you deal with someone trying at all cost to avoid giving concrete information? We do know Crockford from many, many opportunities of seeing him as a speaker though, and from that uninviting him has no basis. As we can read in the statement he even spoke at the same conference last year without any problems. Read this reddit comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/51e2jb/nodevember_organizers_steps_down_i_did_not_and/d7b9k7r https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/51e2jb/nodevemb... which debunks that there were "many" people, and/or that those one or two who complained had any evidence at all.
gregjor 10y ago
Every article I've read about this repeats the characterization of Crockford as a "grumpy old man." Self-important not-yet-old people with thin skins apparently unaware of rampant age discrimination in the tech industry, I guess. And unaware of multiple meanings of words and lameness of geek humor.
_pmf_ 10y ago
Excluding older people because they have a different kind of humor is bordering on ageism.
aikah 10y ago
> The tweets go on to chastize the conference for being held at a “Christian university”. It is worth noting: I am a Christian. I would challenge that I am in the minority among most conference attendees. > The acceptance of persons from all religions are part of diversity and inclusivity, as a whole. This is a postion I support and encourage. > We, as organizers, were being publicly shamed because of our inclusion > of a speaker, in which another speaker had a preference against. > This is not tolerance. This is not acceptance. This is not inclusivity. Wow seriously ? and that person who got Doug unvinvited talks about "inclusivity" while shitting on Christians and getting people kicked out ? I'm not going to that conference that's certain. The person who got Doug uninvited is just despicable. I'm christian myself. How can one brag about "inclusivity" while saying this kind of crap? hypocrisy at its finest. I hope it backfires. This conference needs to be cancelled for the sake of the tech community.
- wayniac 10y ago
  You don't get it: To SJWs like that person, it's only inclusive when it's minorities. These are the same idiots who constantly say how you can't be racist against whites, you can't be sexist against men, and everything under the sun all the while being racist against whites and sexist against men in order to justify their vilifying and outright calling for witch hunts against "normal" people. That's how they operate. By "inclusive" they mean to everyone but the normal demographic (i.e. typically straight white males), the typical attendees can fuck off as far as they're concerned because of "a history of oppression" or whatever bullshit they spout out relating to misunderstood and often completely wrong anecdotes. By "inclusive" they want a kindergarten-esque safe space where they will be protected from hearing anything that they don't want to hear, and therefore pretending it doesn't exist. Crockford's only "crime" here was to make a comment that someone felt was "slut shaming" as if that should have any relevance at all to a tech conference and as a result started an internet shitstorm which sadly had the organizers of the conference kowtow to for some unknown reason.
abz10 10y ago
The problem with using diversity as a selection criteria bias means that statistically on average the diverse speakers will be worse. While attending such a conference, if one were to optimize for the quality of speakers a simple rule to achieve this at such conferences would be to avoid the diverse speakers and pick a different track. I avoid 'diverse' speakers, not because I'm racist, sexist, transphobic etc but because I don't like having my time wasted.
- mcphage 10y ago
  > that statistically on average the diverse speakers will be worse I mean, since you're being technical, then it actually means that the speakers will be slightly worse at writing talk proposals. But ability to write a talk proposal isn't the same as ability to give a talk. And even if it were, it's meaningless—when doing a conference, maximizing the individual speaker "quality" isn't helpful either. 10 speakers speaking about the same topic amazingly is worse for an attendee than 10 speakers speaking about 10 different things merely very well.
  - abz10 10y ago
    I was not proposing alternative metrics for measuring quality but I believe it should be safe to say that talk proposals are a better indicator of talk quality than race and gender. Nor was I recommending maximizing individual speaker quality over maximizing conference quality. To reuse your two metrics, I would expect 10 different talk topics given by people of the same race and gender to yield more value to attendees than the 10 same talk topics given by people of all different race and genders.
novaleaf 10y ago
> I was not apart of the decision to uninvite Douglas Crockford to Nodevember Quite literally, the quoted sentence means "I was part of the decision". From the rest of the article, I think the poster has a serious grammatical error. "a part" != "apart". http://www.dictionary.com/browse/apart http://www.dictionary.com/browse/apart
alansmitheebk 10y ago
Since we're keeping score on what speakers make others reluctant to participate, I do not feel comfortable speaking at or attending conferences where Kassandra Perch is a speaker. And when it comes to the selection of speakers and their topics, I'm more interested in learning about technology than hearing about diversity and having an equal number of male, female, and gender-neutral speakers. After all, these are TECH conferences.

248 points by knes 10y ago

Hopefully, Nodevember will implode, and serve as an example to other organizations. The growing power of the hateful, vicious SJW cry-bullies will only be checked when caving to them becomes more costly than not caving to them. I hope Nodevember's corporate sponsors are flooded with complaints and boycotts over Nodevember's cowardly and shabby treatment of Crockford. Next year there will be few if any takers. I hope Nodevember's 2016 speakers will be subject to pressure to withdraw over Nodevember's actions. The potential downside of associating with Nodevember needs to be made far greater than any potential upside. These demented SJWs will take over the world if no one stands up to them.

ben_jones 10y ago
One of the bullies is actually a 'developer evangelist' at salesforce... I find that ironic.
- dickbasedregex 10y ago
  Is 'developer evangelist' just the term for a sales rep who makes their personal crusade everyone's problem? Seems as much. Also, a terrible title. It induces eye rolling as much as rockstar or ninja.

jgrahamc 10y ago

The tweets go on to chastize the conference for being held at a “Christian university”. It is worth noting: I am a Christian. I would challenge that I am in the minority among most conference attendees. Be interesting to know if that last line is true.

asplake 10y ago
Would it matter either way? The "worth noting" rider risks obscuring the apparent deep irony of the first sentence
deleted 10y ago
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tnone 10y ago
Probably, especially if you limit it to practicing Christians. You know the diversity brigade doesn't really want people like that to attend. This is starting to look more and more like someone's personal hangups turned into vendetta, using the nearest available excuses and target.
- pluma 10y ago
  I'm atheist and think that religion is outright harmful so I'm somewhat aware of people's expressed or apparent religious beliefs. In my experience vocal Christians (as in: people mentioning Jesus, prayer or other church-related activities in person or on Twitter) are the minority, at least when it comes to JS conference speakers. So much so that they stick out as much as e.g. a Muslim wearing a hijab. That said, even as a "militant" atheist I wouldn't mind having a Christian university as the conference venue or having Christian speakers -- as long as they don't try to use the talk/event as a means to force their ideologies on others. If anything, I'd find it interesting, because it's a place and a kind of person I would not actively seek out otherwise (i.e. outside the technical/conference context). A few people I follow on Twitter or outspoken Christians or even Mormons. Yes, I find their religious gobbledegook annoying (but I'm sure they'd find my atheist rants equally unpleasant) but if they have enough interesting things to say otherwise, I'm willing to put up with that no matter how much it offends my sensibilities. I'd hope this is the norm, but apparently "diversity" these days often means "no disagreeable persons" and being a white Christian heterosexual cis-man is borderline offensive in itself.
- youdontknowtho 10y ago
  Yeah, it's too bad that religion has been pushed underground in America. Maybe one day, if we are lucky, we'll 44 Christian presidents in a row. Diversity brigade? I grew up in a majority religious area. You can keep your indignation, friend. When religious people have the ability to, they get all kinds of "hung up" on "available excuses and targets".
ajdlinux 10y ago
Anecdata - out of the ~30 people on my team, there's about 4 or 5 practising Christians that I know of (myself being one of them). There's probably about the same number of "vocal, militant" atheists and most of the rest I strongly suspect are agnostic/atheist. I'm in a relatively "progressive" part of Australia - in the parts of the Australian tech community I'm involved with, I'd say that last statement is definitely true.
throwanem 10y ago
My experience suggests so. My experience also includes a case, at a very high-end tech company which I hesitate to name, where I saw a colleague derided as mentally ill, to her face, because she spoke of her faith without shame. Nobody seemed to see a problem with that. In such a light, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more Christians in the industry than are immediately obvious.
- alessioalex 10y ago
  I'm not from the US, but Eastern Europe. We are more conservative, but in the recent years that's been my experience as well. If you speak about your religion you usually get shit on.
  - nazgob 10y ago
    Really? I get shit for being atheist in EE. I guess we two could co-exist normally ;)
iuguy 10y ago
I can't speak for Nodevember, but as far as I'm aware, we have one openly practicing Christian working on 44CON. Not sure how many in other conferences in the UK, but I expect the number to be smaller than the number of Atheists and Agnostics by far. Also in the UK the dominant sect of Christianity is Church of England, which in the UK is very casual compared to the Catholic church.
- jgrahamc 10y ago
  Also in the UK the dominant sect of Christianity is Church of England, which in the UK is very casual compared to the Catholic church. Agreed. I was baptised in a CofE church etc. However, there are probably lots of people in the UK who have a vague connection to the CofE without calling themselves Christian. I was mostly interested in the number of practicing Christians in tech. My guess is those people keep their faith pretty quiet.
swsieber 10y ago
It probably is? Unless of course it's a smaller, local conference. In which case it would be representative of the local population. So expect a lot of Mormons in a Utah based conference. OTOH, I bet numbers are probably higher than you might think. Not every Christian is outspoken, and religion seems to be pretty openly hated on - I could see a large % of religious people just being quiet to avoid contention OR because they aren't really practicing.
sjwright 10y ago
I don't see how anyone's religion is any more important at a tech conference than which football team they follow. Neither football nor religion ever seem to get mentioned at any conferences I've attended. If someone is spending time at a tech conference intensely focused on how many people in the room happen to believe in the same god(s) as them, they might be the ones with the problem.
- jgrahamc 10y ago
  I agree. I wouldn't want people doing that.
bogomipz 10y ago
So while a Christian University is willing to be accommodating to a tech conference without regards to anyones religious views the reverse of that is not true. This is in a tweet about inclusivity?
ubertaco 10y ago
Speaking as a practicing-Christian developer in the US "Bible Belt" area: my experience leads me to believe so, though mileage may vary by group. In the startup where I work currently, all 4 devs are practicing Christians/Catholics (myself included). In circles where I generally interact with other developers, (slack channels and in person), the assumption tends to be some form of irreligious/secular ideology, although generally those areas are more "true secular" -- that is, "sure, okay, believe what you want, that's your business." In the internet at large, I tend to get some form of condescension or general dismissal for mentioning my faith in anything but an almost-apologetic tone. But that's the internet, and frankly people can say whatever they want to me online. The thing that's more frightening to me is when that dismissal starts to cross from internet snark and jabs into active sort of "retribution" or (ironically) "witch hunts", trying to shut people's career opportunities down on the basis of their belief systems. Look, everyone has a worldview, because everyone observes the world around them and arrives at conclusions. And given how complex any given worldview must be when brought in contact with reality, and how many people there are in the world with such different realities and experiences, you're just not going to be on the same page as everyone. In fact, you're virtually guaranteed not to be on the exact same page as anyone. Intellectual and emotional maturity, at least in my view, requires the capability to look at another person's point of view and try to understand it -- and if you can't, then pare down to what's germaine to the subject at hand. I don't have to agree with my Muslim coworker about Jesus's divinity, but I do have to try to cooperate with him in deciding whether we should upgrade our codebase to Angular 2. I may want us to agree about Jesus's divinity (and indeed, for religious reasons I may believe this is my life's central issue -- which I do), but if I mention the subject to him, it should be in another context where such issues are more germaine, and it should be in a way that grants him the intellectual respect to decline the conversation and disagree with me. Just as I would not topically-hijack a work-focused meeting to try to convert my coworkers, I would hope not to be denied participation in such a meeting because of the unrelated issue of my beliefs.

okket 10y ago

Previous discussions, in chronological order: "In defence of Douglas Crockford" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420 (2 days ago, 407 comments) "Crockford" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12425061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12425061 (1 day ago, 95 comments) "Inclusivity Is a Joke" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12425353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12425353 (1 day ago, 203 comments)

NhanH 10y ago

> A suggestion to boycott the conference was made, because of suspicion that diverisity and inclusivity were not top priority. I don't have a reasonable word to describe this (ie. nothing better than name calling). So let's just say "I think it's not particularly reasonable for a tech conference to put anything besides tech to be top priority" is an understatement for me. That said, I want to note that any flak being shot should not be aimed at the organizer at all. The topic of "diversity" is slowly joining the rank of "What you can't say"[0] topic, and it takes a lot of work, courage and risk for an organizer to stand against an accusation like that. It's entirely reasonable for an organizer to drop a speaker under said circumstances, although they did botch the execution of removing a speaker pretty badly. What's unfortunate is that such action can be considered "reasonable", and the question of who to send flak to is left as an exercise for the sub-comment thread. [0]: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

geldan 10y ago
I don't think it's reasonable that the organizer not be held accountable. From this article: > By the time I’d received notice of the event unfolding on the evening of 2016-09-01, the decision was already made by the main organzier, swiftly and without discussion. > And in a moment of confusion, a poor decision was made to remove Douglas Crockford as a speaker, by the main organizer. Just because the organizer was put in a tough position doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for making the wrong decision.
- NhanH 10y ago
  You can held them accountable the same way you held your junior developer accountable: it was a mistake, and they definitely could have done a lot better. Any blame wouldn't be unjustified. But what's the point and to what end? Edit: the point is that it's missing the root cause. People could always be better, smarter, doing the right thing, be omniscience. But most of us are not. Between a rock and a hard place... there is no good choice. For all they know, all of their other 47 speakers are not speaking in the alternative case.
  - 10y ago

Negitivefrags 10y ago

This whole saga is just painful to watch. It's the Super PC Crowd vs the Ultra PC crowd competing on who can moralize the hardest. Can't we just grow up and get some real work done?

Bouncingsoul1 10y ago
Splitter!
- tnone 10y ago
  I hate these social judean warriors.

3princip 10y ago

If I understand correctly, the conference "de-platformed" Douglas Crockford because at some point in the past he made a joke about the internet being promiscuous? How utterly absurd. One should question the competence of these people to organize a technical conference. Irrational, childish behavior.

youdontknowtho 10y ago
There was also a presentation where he kept referring to testicles in various ways. "If you have the chicarrones you can learn monads in Haskell"... As per usual, there is more to it than is being discussed on this site.
shard972 10y ago
Seems completely reasonable to me. If people in the technology industry cannot move forward with society then they should be left behind.
- matthewmorgan 10y ago
  it's the taboo-merchants who will be left behind
- tobltobs 10y ago
  A joke about the internet being promiscuous means that the person cannot move forward with society? He even did say that being promiscuous was a good thing for the internet. And this whole thing seems to be completely reasonable to you?
  - chrisbennet 10y ago
    It wasn't a joke about the internet being promiscuous. Crock ford used the word "promiscuous" correctly and people (non-native speakers or uneducated perhap?) didn't know that the word has multiple meaning and took it the wrong way. It would be almost like using the word "catholic" but having it misinterpreted as "Catholic" and then taking offense.
- 10y ago

eecc 10y ago

Seriously? I never imagined I'd see this slow-motion move towards the kind of bigotry and conservatism we're accustomed to blame theocracies of. Seriously, if "dog balls parens" and a metaphor involving "promiscuity" (sexual, I presume) is all that's needed to be toast, you're so badly f*cked it's not funny. at all

adamors 10y ago
Crockford said: > the Old Web was great because it provided promiscuity [0] and > promiscuous: indiscriminate; without discrimination [1]. It's just people getting offended for absolutely no reason. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w6tZEbrHIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w6tZEbrHIY [1]: from http://www.dictionary.com/browse/promiscuous http://www.dictionary.com/browse/promiscuous
- tankenmate 10y ago
  Hyper-vigilance is quite often an ongoing response to PTSD. It would not surprise me if a large number of people who get so offended over the use of language no matter tenuous or non-existent are in fact reliving previous issues. Would it not be better that root cause are addressed; honest to goodness cases and their psychological fall out are dealt with so that whole conferences don't need to duck and run for cover every time a car backfires.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    > It would not surprise me if a large number of people who get so offended over the use of language no matter tenuous or non-existent are in fact reliving previous issues. I highly doubt that. There seems to be a great deal of deliberation behind these attacks always involving some self declared champion of 'rights' that is flexing their muscle in an underhanded game of power.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      I think it's a little of both. On the one hand you have people who really do have troubles and really could use a little kindness, and on the other you have people who are totally okay with cynically exploiting them and their troubles in order to acquire power. And if we're honest, people who've been abused already? Super easy to exploit. You don't even have to break them yourself! That's already taken care of. Do I sound bitter? Perhaps I sound bitter. I was going for savage sarcasm, but maybe I've overshot and landed in bitter. I've seen this dynamic play out to completion once, with homosexuals like myself in the role of foil. Now I'm seeing it play out again, this time on the backs of people whose uniting characteristic is having gone through hell at the hands of others, in many cases at the hands of people whom they should have been safely able to trust. Now they get to be used all over again, at the hands of people claiming to want to help - indeed claiming, implicitly or otherwise, to be the only ones who can effectively help, a classic abuser's trick in itself. In the face of such enormities, perhaps I may be forgiven a bitter moment here and there, shameful though they nonetheless be.

Mao_Zedang 10y ago

The left always eat their own.

chris_wot 10y ago
We can't help it if we are delicious and good to eat. The right are bitter and tough to chew on. It's an obvious culinary preference that drives us.
PavlovsCat 10y ago
Define "left". I don't have a definition either, I don't like or use the word, but I know there have been and are people that I adore and agree with on many things who probably would be labelled that way, and all of them would spit out what you seem to consider "left". One example: > Do not preach the straight and narrow way while going joyously upon the wide one. Preach the wide one, or do not preach at all; but do not fool yourself by saying you would like to help usher in a free society, but you cannot sacrifice an armchair for it. Say honestly, "I love arm-chairs better than free men, and pursue them because I choose; not because circumstances make me. I love hats, large, large hats, with many feathers and great bows; and I would rather have those hats than trouble myself about social dreams that will never be accomplished in my day. The world worships hats, and I wish to worship with them." > But if you choose the liberty and pride and strength of the single soul, and the free fraternization of men, as the purpose which your life is to make manifest then do not sell it for tinsel. Think that your soul is strong and will hold its way; and slowly, through bitter struggle perhaps the strength will grow. And the foregoing of possessions for which others barter the last possibility of freedom will become easy. > At the end of life you may close your eyes saying: "I have not been dominated by the Dominant Idea of my Age; I have chosen mine own allegiance, and served it. I have proved by a lifetime that there is that in man which saves him from the absolute tyranny of Circumstance, which in the end conquers and remoulds Circumstance, the immortal fire of Individual Will, which is the salvation of the Future." - Voltairine de Cleyre If you say a little candle (or even just one that is fake and painted on) is the sun, that just means you don't know what the sun is. Keep looking maybe, or keep rationalizing your inertness to those who would fall for it.

erlich 10y ago

It truly warms my heart to hear this! I'm so glad people are fighting back against political correctness. We're all just trying to get work done, and we have to put up with this constant background noise. Checking in once in a while to see what language is now deemed inappropriate to avoid chastization by some Twitter white knight legion. Its the ultimate bikeshedding.

skywhopper 10y ago
Getting stuff done requires working with people. Working with people requires basic manners including a willingness to be polite. Sure, a lot of requirements of manners are often irrational and make little or no sense to the technically minded. But it's the cost of participating in society. Whining about not being able to say certain words is about the least productive thing you can do, and makes you appear to prioritize your desire to be a jerk over getting things done. So let's get some work done and stop whining about how we might have to think about other people and consider the impact of our words.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  > Whining about not being able to say certain words is about the least productive thing you can do, and makes you appear to prioritize your desire to be a jerk over getting things done. It's more about not wanting to "walk on eggshells". I don't want a speaker to spend >1/2 of his time prepping for the political side of a presentation. I want a speaker who spends the majority of his time on the technical details. If you want to "get stuff done", sure, sometimes you have to be more polite than you want. But the other side of the coin is that you also have to be thick-skinned. If every little thing "offends" you, then you are not going to get any work done either, and your actively preventing others from doing so.
- ori_b 10y ago
  > Getting stuff done requires working with people. Working with people requires basic manners including a willingness to be polite. Getting stuff done requires working with people. Working with people requires basic tolerance, including a willingness to ignore different political viewpoints, jokes that fall flat, and different cultures and communication styles.

forgottenacc56 10y ago

So it's because a religious person felt uncomfortable about a non religious person (Crockford presumably)?

pluma 10y ago
No, it's because a feminist felt uncomfortable about a non feminist.
- dlmetcalf 10y ago
  Specifically an intersectional feminist. It's worth observing that Crockford's own intersections are that he's older, white, cis-male, an authority figure; which ticks just about every box for being an intersectional feminist enemy. Wouldn't be surprised if there's a fair bit of ageism, racism, sexism, heterophobia behind this, for him not being 'diverse' enough.
  - sjwright 10y ago
    Indeed. And apparently, according to these people, we must hold Douglas responsible for being an old white male. It's his fault! He should have known better and been a young black woman instead. Obviously.

meritt 10y ago

It's amusing how strongly the Node community strives to be "inclusionary" when comes to race/gender/orientation/religion/etc but when someone presents dissenting technical ideas or thinks an implementation is wrong, they might as well be crucified for voicing such blasphemy.

chris_wot 10y ago
Being crucified for blasphemy seems a might ironic.
- Noseshine 10y ago
  Well, the original meaning of crucifixion merely is to have a very punishing (and very public) form of capital punishment. The religious meaning was added on top of that, and it isn't actually the crucifixion itself, but the person who died and that he did so. The method itself isn't the focus.
- PeterisP 10y ago
  Well, the biblical crucifixion was for blasphemy, so it's kind of a usual reason to do it.
sleepychu 10y ago
I don't think that'll ultimately help Node but I don't see a problem with an opinionated language/framework from a technical point of view. Feel free to hold whichever extreme technical standpoints you wish. The problem is when we fail to embrace people who are technically strong because of their race/gender/religion/sexual orientation, these are all clearly bad metrics to judge technical ability by.
ageofwant 10y ago
I have noticed that the most self identifying "progressive left" people are some of the most intolerant individuals I've ever had to deal with. They are extraordinarily dismissive of any "non-aligned" viewpoints, they are miniature despots. I would hate for any of those to have any real power over other people's lives. Being tolerant is being OK with other people being "wrong".

aub3bhat 10y ago

It's in scenarios like these that in spite of the slow & tedious peer review process I am thankful that IEEE / ACM research conferences exist. Those are the places that truly strive to be inclusive by enforcing peer review and often double blind processes, where technical merit alone being the deciding factor. There are no calls to disinvite authors because of the beliefs held by them. Researchers from China, Russia, Middle east who likely do not subscribe to the same "progressive" ideas, can still participate purely on basis of the technical merit of their work. That to me is real inclusivity. These new "cons" with their long list of rules are not about inclusivity but rather about imposing cultural hegemony.

dozzie 10y ago
> Those are the places that truly strive to be inclusive [...] where technical merit alone being the deciding factor. This is not "striving to be inclusive", it's "striving to be technical". Which is a good thing for technical conference. You don't want to include minority just to include minority, you want to have best talks possible without regard of being given by minority or not.
- skywhopper 10y ago
  Having someone other than the typical speaker on stage actually has enormous value. It's not true that there is an objective way to judge the value, even the technical value, of a presentation, particularly before it is given. So while saying "we want the best technical talks" sounds good, refusing to consider other factors actually works against minorities who -- no matter how blind and merit-based _your_ approval process may be -- often face innumerable other disadvantages in getting to where they are, including an overwhelming lack of role models in places like technical conferences.
  - gregjor 10y ago
    On the one hand I agree with you: some people face disadvantages and don't see role models, in tech conferences and other contexts, like actual jobs. On the other hand that isn't fixed by buckling to vague accusations, attempts to ostracize supposed offenders, or enforcing rules of behavior that restrict who people are. Bias and exclusivity are real problems in tech conferences, in the industry as a whole, and in real life. Changing social norms has to be an organic process, not a battle of grievances and petty punishments and social media smearing. I've been to conferences where people I don't want to listen to are speaking. I just don't go to their presentations. I'd like to think that when I pay to attend a conference the speakers and topics are chosen for relevance and quality. I'd also like to believe that everyone has an equal chance to get on the speaker list, by considering what they have to offer and how well they can present it, and not considering their personal disadvantages. We all have personal disadvantages, and favoring some over others changes worthwhile goals (respect, opportunity, inclusion) into bickering and vindictiveness.

minork 10y ago

Someone mistook Mr. Crockford for Brendan Eich and fired away some tweets.

throwanem 10y ago
Would it have been okay if it were Eich?
- hoodoof 10y ago
  In the U.S., anyone "guilty" must be driven into the ground for the rest of their life, having forfeited everything.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- minork 10y ago
  http://projects.latimes.com/prop8/donation/8930/ http://projects.latimes.com/prop8/donation/8930/
  - throwanem 10y ago
    I didn't ask about his politics.
    - minork 10y ago
      I don't know. You tell me? At least there is something in the public history about Eich that could offend someone. But to accuse someone in public of something and not be public about what, naaa, that's not ok.
      - throwanem 10y ago
        So it's purely a transparency issue?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

LoneWolf 10y ago

Can someone explain to someone who has not been following this (me) what happened in a short way, all I find are huge posts and I can't spare the time unfortunately.

geowwy 10y ago
Douglas Crockford is a grumpy old man who has a history of making politically incorrect jokes. There are a handful of inclusivity activists who campaign against him because of that. The main Nodevember organiser recently dropped Douglas Crockford as a speaker. No one knows why because they haven't properly explained themselves. But presumably it's because they're sympathetic to (or scared of) the inclusivity activists. This is part of a wider battle between inclusivity activists and their critics, hence the controversy.
- dlmetcalf 10y ago
  'is allegedly a grumpy old man who had allegations made about him that he has a history of making politically incorrect jokes.' Definitions of correctness vary. Saying "history" may also suggest it's some kind of consistent pattern. A huge part of the real issue also seems to be, that on inspection, not very much was found at all.
- LoneWolf 10y ago
  Thank you so much, I am getting tired of these inclusivity activists that want to force the list of speakers to be representative of every religion, ethnicity, etc. No I have no problems with the speakers being of any specific ethicity or whatever. The speakers at conferences should be invited by merit or because they can give a good talk about a subject relevant, not just the sake of diversity, I will not care if the speaker is a woman, man, straight or gay, if I go to a conference it is because of the theme not because it has representation of every ethnicity etc.
  - geowwy 10y ago
    I'm going to differ on this. I 100% support inclusivity. I really, really like my job and I know activists have the power to destroy my career. Therefore I'm doing like Scott Adams[1] and supporting inclusivity, because it's safer for my career if I do. [1] http://blog.dilbert.com/post/145456082991/my-endorsement-for-president-of-the-united-states http://blog.dilbert.com/post/145456082991/my-endorsement-for...

etangent 10y ago

At this point, it would be desirable if people started actively boycotting Nodevember. I understand that quite many individuals in the Node community may be in favor of the decision to exclude Crockford, but I also suspect that there is a significant amount of people (if judging only by the responses in this thread) who very much dislike that decision. A concerted effort to boycott the conference, even if done by a minority, would set a precedent and send a very clear message that such arbitrarily rude behavior on the part of the organizers will not be tolerated in future events like this. A boycott would also pressure the organizers to either "put up or shut up" regarding the evidence surrounding Crockford's dismissal. There is a very good chance [1] that this is a personal vendetta happening rather than any ethical misdeed done on Crockford's part. If so, a move to boycott the conference would benefit not only the liberal side, but also the "politically correct" (for lack of better words) side, as nobody is interested that their political movement be hijacked by people seeking personal/egotistic goals [2]. If, on the other hand, Crockford was indeed dismissed due to political motives, there is still a decent chance that the evidence against him is extremely weak (hence reluctance to present it). Such a situation would also benefit both sides, in the sense that it would teach them a valuable lesson that persecuting people is not something that should be undertaken lightly. There are other JavaScript conferences happening this year [3]. Go to those instead. Encourage your friends to do the same. --- [1] See Tim Hunt's case for an example of a similar situation where the evidence against an individual later turned out to be mostly made up of thin air. https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/the-timothy-hunt-witch-hunt/ https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/the-timothy-hunt... [2] Per conversation with the organizer, he had admitted to having "a long and storied history" with D. Crockford, which further corroborates the possibility of personal vendetta. https://twitter.com/getify/status/772413034773909504 https://twitter.com/getify/status/772413034773909504 [3] https://github.com/prigara/javascript-conferences https://github.com/prigara/javascript-conferences

ageofwant 10y ago
Absolutely. I will not willingly associate myself with the Nodevember cabal, and neither should any other reasonable and tolerant progressive.
- 10y ago

hasenj 10y ago

What is this nonsense? Why do conference organizers need to care about finding speakers to represent fat people, for example? Is this really a tech conference?

nowprovision 10y ago
We also need to consider left handed people are equally and fairly represented, for too long the privileged and dominating right handies have over-run these conferences.
- DigitalSea 10y ago
  Can't forget the left hand vegan aesthists as well. I hope they're being represented at this conference as well.
  - ben_jones 10y ago
    I'm gluten free. Am I to believe there are no gluten free options available at the conference?!
    - nowprovision 10y ago
      In response to your concerns we took a closer look at our speakers' dietary preferences.. I have good news.. In addition to adding 3 new gluten-free keynote speakers (To be announced) we removed a speaker that does not align with our mission of equally representing gluten-free. This a community conference to support collaboration among developers with different dietary preferences and we want ALL developers to feel comfortable with the dietary preferences of all our speakers particularly our keynoters. I apologise this action took 4.1 minutes to cement.We had to formulate the tweets first..
- CM30 10y ago
  Dont't forget a diverse mix of opinions, religious or political beliefs! Like more conservatives, religious folk or people with controversial viewpoints not currently represented! Oh wait. The people wanting this stuff only care about diversity of appearance, not diversity of thought.

hanoz 10y ago

Competitive political correctness is a difficult and high stakes game at the best of times, but this lot are so ultra inclusive that they included JavaScript on the server side. I wouldn't get involved.

ageofwant 10y ago
I sometimes troll through the comment dross in the forlorn hope of finding rare gems like this. Hat tip good Sir.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  Heavens only knows what would happen if they invite Crockford back. If he was feeling mean-spirited he could switch his talk to the correct use of semicolons in JavaScript code.
jsmthrowaway 10y ago
Sheesh, you could have made that joke without the unnecessary jab at political correctness, you know. Why drag PC into it? (surprisingly necessary edit: /s)
- gadders 10y ago
  Because it is what caused this issue?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

dunkelheit 10y ago

This just confirms the old principle that anything taken to the extreme turns into its opposite. If you fight for inclusivity, prepare to exclude people. If you strive to make everyone comfortable, prepare to face some very uncomfortable situations.

exclusiv 10y ago
Agreed. I find it both amusing and disturbing to watch things like this unfold. This event seems completely unfounded but even if it had merit, we'd still have a paradox of tolerance [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
czzarr 10y ago
Aristotle said virtue sits at the middle of two extremes. That was thousands of years ago.
CM30 10y ago
Or in other words, like what some people describe as 'horseshoe' theory. Extremists on either side of the spectrum in any subject end up seeming very similar to one another in their views. You can see it in how segregation seems to be making a comeback on college campuses, albeit with social justice types calling for it instead of KKK esque bigots.

grabcocque 10y ago

I still don't understand what it is that Crockford is supposed to have done. I mean, I've heard him speak: he's insufferable and obnoxious and self-righteous. But is that enough to earn a no-platforming these days? Cripes.

cs02rm0 10y ago
He's not supposed to have done anything tangible, at least as far as anyone has shown to be the case. Just some vague handwaving in his direction. There's speculation he's sometimes a bit grumpy and curt, made some jokes about people not wanting to use weak maps and promiscuity in respect of internet connected devices which could be at the root of this, but you'd have to be professionally offended to find issue there. Ultimately these days it seems there are people who go looking for reasons to be offended, or be offended on behalf of others. Naturally, they find what they're looking for. It's a shame this has affected people who just want to discuss technology without prejudice, even if they are javascript developers.
douche 10y ago
From what I can gather, he made a correct technical statement, and also a joke about pork rinds, that some have decided was actually about testicles.
aikah 10y ago
He didn't do anything, some "developer evangelist" doesn't like him, write a blog-post on medium and got him de-invited. He didn't do anything at all. These are the facts, now my opinion: Nothing happened but the Nodevember organizers feared being labelled sexist themselves so they caved to that "developer evangelist" pressures. It back fired. It is grotesque and shameful.

thisdotwat 10y ago

Holy cow, HN. Get this less. Hey, hiring managers: I'm a woman with 10+ years engineering experience and great references. I'm working on leaving the tech industry because this crap isn't getting better fast enough. I'll work for literally any company that pays half decently and puts a real priority on empathic communication. Email's in my profile. Wait, no it isn't-- I'm closing this tab and not looking back, and I definitely don't want any of these people to know my email address. Thanks for sticking up for me.

tnone 10y ago
Empathic is a preference, and judging from your post, one you'd apply selectively and one way. We're the people _you_ don't want to work with, because our communication style is different. Nobody's required to stick up for you, your attempts at shaming not withstanding.
exclusiv 10y ago
Your comment shows a real issue at hand - that many people are so quick to be activists that they don't even need a real story to run with it. Perhaps you've experienced some real issues in the past, but you're undermining your own (and the industry's) cause if you believe: - uninviting Douglas was justified - that the event's process in doing so was reasonable - that scheduling speakers based on their body size or religion makes any sense while at the same time chastising another religion for being affiliated with the host university - that publicly shaming event organizers because you don't have a "preference" (especially an unsubstantiated one) for another speaker is ok

nowprovision 10y ago

I think Mx Kevin is quite right to step away from this grand mess, it sounds like this all could of been avoided if the main organizer spent more than 41 minutes in deliberating what action to take when a hypersensitive social justice warrior started venting on Twitter. Complete dog balls..

sjwright 10y ago
Your reference to dog balls makes me feel uncomfortable.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  Quick, someone prohibit talk of dog balls in the CoC!
  - nowprovision 10y ago
    All in time.. I'm expecting the banishment first..

oellegaard 10y ago

When I started as a developer, I didn't care who I talked to if I thought they could contribute something interesting. I wouldn't care what religion, gender or country they were from - I was just interested in learning. I recently stopped going to tech conferences. I don't want to go to gender/sexuality/religion/you name it-equality conferences and it seems like thats the main topic in all tech conferences these days. Can someone bring back the technical discussions and throw out the bullies?

Balgair 10y ago
>Can someone bring back the technical discussions and throw out the bullies? -"The Tale of the Interwebz"

DigitalSea 10y ago

The whole situation is just ridiculous. SJW's have well and truly infiltrated the Javascript community. The Paul Straw linked post really highlights how silly this situation is. A few comments taken completely out of context and because some people took them the wrong way, things spiralled out of control. I personally am not a fan of Douglas Crockford, but my views of him personally don't override the fact that he did nothing wrong in this situation. He should not have been un-invited to the conference. Their loss, Crockford is a smart guy and a huge drawcard for an event like this. Now we get to listen to a bunch of twenty-somethings talk to us about a language that Crockford was pioneering when they were still in school.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

hoorayimhelping 10y ago

>Each of these were most likely represented. That's what this is all about. It's not about being diverse, it's about ticking off a list of checkboxes to make sure every group that some moral authority thinks needs to represented is properly represented.

kyrre 10y ago

this crockford business is even more stupid than the eggplant issue. glad to see ordinary, decent people are fighting back.

haneefmubarak 10y ago
What was the eggplant issue...?
- aikah 10y ago
  I searched on google I found this : https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3syfzb/socjus_github_project_nodejs_bans_user_for/?st=isrrahay&sh=3d34c693 https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3syfzb/socj... It might be about it since it's the same people that kicked out CrockFord from Nodevember. I have no opinion about this specific matter nor endorse what is said in this thread, but it looks like it is related to "EmilyRose", the same person that wrote a blogpost on medium saying how CrockFord made her feel unconfortable which led to the situation at hand.

youdontknowtho 10y ago

It seems that there is wide agreement on this site on a lot of subjects. Often I just find it boring and hit "hide". Your opinions on Microsoft. Your libertarian beliefs. Your insular and weird fixations on "perfect" technologies that were suppressed by larger forces often sound like the worst conspiracy theories ever. (I mean seriously, at least make the villain a lizard or something.) But this has become really cultish. If you think that attempts to keep sexual language out of presentations* is some how on par with the actual intolerance that is being practiced in many states in the union these days, you need to get out more. It's just not. I wonder how so many iconoclasts and independent thinking "disruptors" wind up thinking exactly alike? It's also funny how all of you think that you are being oppressed when you are part of one of the most privileged classes in a very privileged country. I wrote a long comment yesterday in one of these Crockford posts where I tried to honestly explain why things might not be the way you think they are. Claiming to be purely meritocratic really ignores the power relationships in society. but you have to be willing to consider that you might be wrong on this or anything...and believe me, that's not something that this group is readily capable of. I really need to write something that scrapes the links off of this and a couple of other sites and sticks them in a feed. Comments are really bringing me down and I can count on one hand the number of times that I've found something interesting. My weakness? Trying to convince people of something...I shouldn't even try anymore. *"If you have the chicarrones you can learn monads in Haskell"...from the presentation "Monads and Gonads"

afandian 10y ago

There's a strong movement for Codes of Conduct at conferences. It's a very good idea. How about a CoC for conference organisers? Some minimal level of professionally? The official statement: > This conference was started by a group of friends to gather around the love of a shared language and community. > We are in over our heads. http://nodevember.org/statement.html http://nodevember.org/statement.html Is zero excuse. Don't organise a conference if you can't organise a conference. If Codes of Conduct are meant to protect attendees from incumbent inequalities and prejudices, what hope do we have if the organisers behave like an old boys club who keep out people that aren't like them?

DonHopkins 10y ago
The need to be more agile about unit testing their codes of conduct stakeholders.

gadders 10y ago

Another win for the SJWs.

sklivvz1971 10y ago

I've written a few thoughts inspired by this brouhaha. Mostly: diversity and inclusivity need empathy and compassion to be worth having. And some wise advice on this by Kurt Hahn. http://sklivvz.com/posts/diversity-being-comfortable-and-ten-good-principles http://sklivvz.com/posts/diversity-being-comfortable-and-ten... I'd welcome respectful feedback.

wayniac 10y ago

People just need to start standing up to these SJW people. They are literally infesting everything: Colleges, workplaces, open source, everything. They act like bullies whenever someone says something they disagree with, even calling for open retaliation across social media because they have no understanding of the real world. What is worse is that more and more people are actually catering to them out of fear instead of standing up and saying "Look, you're an adult. Act like one instead of a kindergartener who missed their nap. People are going to say things you don't like or don't agree with; shut your mouth and learn to live with it". Instead, we get things like this that juts reinforce the SJW belief that they are pure and right and that everyone needs to do what they say. It's really pathetic.

CM30 10y ago
Isn't that what GamerGate was basically about? Well, at least in part anyway. But the issue with standing up to them (however necessary it might be) is that such individuals have a tendency to play the victim a lot and get quite a bit of the media to rally around them every time someone calls them out. It's hard to call out cases like this when the inevitable media coverage will be 'Javascript conference harassed by internet trolls over Douglas Crockford's invite'.
- wayniac 10y ago
  Perhaps but at the same time I think some blame lies on the conferences that try to cater to these folks instead of telling them to grow up and act like adults. You're right though, the SJW crowd loves to play the victim card and cry racism/sexism/oppression whenever someone doesn't cater to them. If the conference had been like no we aren't doing it, the person who complained would have likely blogged/tweeted/etc. about how the conference is sexist and "problematic" because they aren't listening to her (pretty sure it was a woman) and are therefore engaging in rape culture or whatever stupid nonsense these people peddle.
- aikah 10y ago
  > that such individuals have a tendency to play the victim a lot and get quite a bit of the media to rally around them every time someone calls them out Of course, they know how things work, they'll accuse you of racism, sexism, misogyny, transphobia and ruin your career that's what they do.They know they need no proof and let the internet "be judge", that's what dangerous with these people. If you dare call them out your career is finished, they have a real power of nuisance, wrapped in "virtue" with leitmotives such as "inclusivity" and "diversity". Newspeech at its finest. It's just a power grab game, and they are eliminating the competition with politics since their skills are mediocre.

chippy 10y ago

It seems like most comments here (and in previous times this has been discussed) are avoiding the actual reason why Crockford was disinvited - it is because a number of speakers said they would be uncomfortable with him speaking and would not speak and attend the conference. The comments appear to be looking for facts, reasons, examples of past behaviour of Crockford to see if these facts can justify the decision. HN'ers are looking to understand the reasons why someone has an emotional response. That is the reason - from http://nodevember.org/statement.html http://nodevember.org/statement.html : "that his presence would make some speakers uncomfortable to the point where they refused to attend or speak.". Instead of addressing this point, we generally are looking for concrete, binary, true and false examples. So it's harder for me to see how his past behaviour makes me uncomfortable. But I also can understand how it can possibly make other people uncomfortable. How should any conference deal with speakers being uncomfortable with things? How can comfort be increased for all? How can a small conference defend against accusations of uncomfortableness? What would the best way to do this be? Personally, I don't think "well I'm comfortable, so it's okay" would be an acceptable response. So, working towards an answer to my own questions, instead of looking for logical reasons, and responding coldly, we should look towards emotion, and respond in kind: "Please be welcome here, we will have separate speaker lounges, multiple places to interact and speak with each other. Many people from a wide range of backgrounds will be attending. It will be our priority to ensure you, and everyone can feel safe and welcome and have an enjoyable time at the conference. We are a group of local friends putting on a great conference about a topic we all like, we arn't a soulless corporate conference. We are approachable and thanks for trusting us and feeling like you can approach us with your concerns." Respond with reassurance, comfort, trustworthiness, essentially more PR and less rationality (and I would suggest that if they did that, the speaker wouldn't need to have been removed)

Noseshine 10y ago
> Instead of addressing this point What point? Their only is this extremely vague statement. How do you deal with someone trying at all cost to avoid giving concrete information? We do know Crockford from many, many opportunities of seeing him as a speaker though, and from that uninviting him has no basis. As we can read in the statement he even spoke at the same conference last year without any problems. Read this reddit comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/51e2jb/nodevember_organizers_steps_down_i_did_not_and/d7b9k7r https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/51e2jb/nodevemb... which debunks that there were "many" people, and/or that those one or two who complained had any evidence at all.

gregjor 10y ago

Every article I've read about this repeats the characterization of Crockford as a "grumpy old man." Self-important not-yet-old people with thin skins apparently unaware of rampant age discrimination in the tech industry, I guess. And unaware of multiple meanings of words and lameness of geek humor.

_pmf_ 10y ago

Excluding older people because they have a different kind of humor is bordering on ageism.

aikah 10y ago

> The tweets go on to chastize the conference for being held at a “Christian university”. It is worth noting: I am a Christian. I would challenge that I am in the minority among most conference attendees. > The acceptance of persons from all religions are part of diversity and inclusivity, as a whole. This is a postion I support and encourage. > We, as organizers, were being publicly shamed because of our inclusion > of a speaker, in which another speaker had a preference against. > This is not tolerance. This is not acceptance. This is not inclusivity. Wow seriously ? and that person who got Doug unvinvited talks about "inclusivity" while shitting on Christians and getting people kicked out ? I'm not going to that conference that's certain. The person who got Doug uninvited is just despicable. I'm christian myself. How can one brag about "inclusivity" while saying this kind of crap? hypocrisy at its finest. I hope it backfires. This conference needs to be cancelled for the sake of the tech community.

wayniac 10y ago
You don't get it: To SJWs like that person, it's only inclusive when it's minorities. These are the same idiots who constantly say how you can't be racist against whites, you can't be sexist against men, and everything under the sun all the while being racist against whites and sexist against men in order to justify their vilifying and outright calling for witch hunts against "normal" people. That's how they operate. By "inclusive" they mean to everyone but the normal demographic (i.e. typically straight white males), the typical attendees can fuck off as far as they're concerned because of "a history of oppression" or whatever bullshit they spout out relating to misunderstood and often completely wrong anecdotes. By "inclusive" they want a kindergarten-esque safe space where they will be protected from hearing anything that they don't want to hear, and therefore pretending it doesn't exist. Crockford's only "crime" here was to make a comment that someone felt was "slut shaming" as if that should have any relevance at all to a tech conference and as a result started an internet shitstorm which sadly had the organizers of the conference kowtow to for some unknown reason.

abz10 10y ago

The problem with using diversity as a selection criteria bias means that statistically on average the diverse speakers will be worse. While attending such a conference, if one were to optimize for the quality of speakers a simple rule to achieve this at such conferences would be to avoid the diverse speakers and pick a different track. I avoid 'diverse' speakers, not because I'm racist, sexist, transphobic etc but because I don't like having my time wasted.

mcphage 10y ago
> that statistically on average the diverse speakers will be worse I mean, since you're being technical, then it actually means that the speakers will be slightly worse at writing talk proposals. But ability to write a talk proposal isn't the same as ability to give a talk. And even if it were, it's meaningless—when doing a conference, maximizing the individual speaker "quality" isn't helpful either. 10 speakers speaking about the same topic amazingly is worse for an attendee than 10 speakers speaking about 10 different things merely very well.
- abz10 10y ago
  I was not proposing alternative metrics for measuring quality but I believe it should be safe to say that talk proposals are a better indicator of talk quality than race and gender. Nor was I recommending maximizing individual speaker quality over maximizing conference quality. To reuse your two metrics, I would expect 10 different talk topics given by people of the same race and gender to yield more value to attendees than the 10 same talk topics given by people of all different race and genders.

novaleaf 10y ago

> I was not apart of the decision to uninvite Douglas Crockford to Nodevember Quite literally, the quoted sentence means "I was part of the decision". From the rest of the article, I think the poster has a serious grammatical error. "a part" != "apart". http://www.dictionary.com/browse/apart http://www.dictionary.com/browse/apart

alansmitheebk 10y ago

Since we're keeping score on what speakers make others reluctant to participate, I do not feel comfortable speaking at or attending conferences where Kassandra Perch is a speaker. And when it comes to the selection of speakers and their topics, I'm more interested in learning about technology than hearing about diversity and having an equal number of male, female, and gender-neutral speakers. After all, these are TECH conferences.