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You comparison is valid ONLY IF Rhino lives in the area within China's jurisdictional control. Panda and Rhino are different cases. Don't compare apple with or

by jjcc 10y ago

You comparison is valid ONLY IF Rhino lives in the area within China's jurisdictional control. Panda and Rhino are different cases. Don't compare apple with orange. Rhino could be saved if it was inside China. Let me explain: What BBC failed to mention is that Chinese government put death penalty[1] on Panda poachers. This is one of measures taken by government among others. It could be a human right's violation but it's not significant enough so BBC can choose to be blind. However to execute anybody who dare to buy or sell Panda skin, it's going too far. Chinese government would not do that other than threatening to do so.Killing drug dealer is acceptable although controversial, killing drug consumer is not acceptable. Go back to Panda vs Rhino: China have no control over poachers. Punishment on illegal trade alone is not effective enough. [1]http://www.riel.whu.edu.cn/article.asp?id=26339 http://www.riel.whu.edu.cn/article.asp?id=26339

DominikR 10y ago
I agree, it's as if one would accuse the drug consumer of being responsible for Mexican drug cartels torturing and beheading innocent civilians which is part of their business strategy. That is not to say that I approve of drug abuse, but everyone can only be held accountable for his own actions, not for the actions of others. It would be something different if the Chinese government actively encouraged import of Rhino parts, but they don't allow this as far as I know.
- majewsky 10y ago
  > everyone can only be held accountable for his own actions, not for the actions of others. Once the rockets are up / who cares where they come down, / „That's not my department“, / says Wernher von Braun.
  - DominikR 10y ago
    Are you arguing that every drug abuser caught should be charged with murder? You kill the Rhino, you are responsible for killing the Rhino. You buy Rhino horn, you are responsible for buying illegal goods and creating demand. (which is not equal to actually killing a Rhino or a human being!) You fail as a government to prevent import of illegal goods, you are responsible for not controlling imports with 100% accuracy. You tell me if you know of any country in the world that is capable of preventing imports of highly sought after illegal goods to a degree that puts producers of these illegal goods out of business. If that was possible there would not be any illegal drugs in the West.
    - chillacy 10y ago
      I think the poster was pointing out that the statement > everyone can only be held accountable for his own actions, not for the actions of others. is very broad, and isn't at all supported by just one example of drug user/cartel, because there are plenty of other cases where that's not true.
      - DominikR 10y ago
        I honestly can't come up with a single example where someone should be held accountable for something someone else did except for cases that involve enabling others who suffer for some kind of psychological illness or are otherwise incapable of acting responsibly as one would expect from an adult.
        chillacy 10y ago
        Sure, you just came up with a couple counterexamples on your own. Another one: If you're a mob boss and you tell your henchmen to murder someone, you're also on the line. That's a pretty direct one. But you could also argue that the witness who accepted a bribe to lie for the mafia is guilty of something, as may be the guy who stocked the weapons that day, or their getaway driver. And at least legally, in the US, if your buddy is robbing the bank and you're his getaway driver, and he kills a police officer before dying himself, you're now on the line for murdering that police officer. I think there's really a sliding scale of complicitness which makes it pretty complex.
    - djrogers 10y ago
      > You kill the Rhino, you are responsible for killing the Rhino. You buy Rhino horn, you are responsible for buying illegal goods and creating demand. (which is not equal to actually killing a Rhino or a human being!) If you buy an illegaly obtained human heart, are you not culpable for the death of the former owner? If you hire a mercenary to obtaining a human heart, are you completely free from all blame for the subsequent murder?
      - 10y ago
- richardw 10y ago
  Agreed. Everyone can only be held accountable for their own actions. So let those who can influence demand do so, and let those who can control supply do so.
richardw 10y ago
Throwing up our hands and saying "China is not responsible because not every variable is within our control" is counterproductive. You're assuming I make China solely responsible for this. I do not. However it would be nice for all parties who are able to reduce impact, to do so within the gamut of their responsibility and influence. Africa must take responsibility for managing poachers and local smuggling networks, and other countries can work to reduce demand. China has an enormous populace so has a massive influence over demand. Pressure must be applied to all points of the problem.

by jjcc 10y ago

DominikR 10y ago

I agree, it's as if one would accuse the drug consumer of being responsible for Mexican drug cartels torturing and beheading innocent civilians which is part of their business strategy. That is not to say that I approve of drug abuse, but everyone can only be held accountable for his own actions, not for the actions of others. It would be something different if the Chinese government actively encouraged import of Rhino parts, but they don't allow this as far as I know.

majewsky 10y ago
> everyone can only be held accountable for his own actions, not for the actions of others. Once the rockets are up / who cares where they come down, / „That's not my department“, / says Wernher von Braun.
- DominikR 10y ago
  Are you arguing that every drug abuser caught should be charged with murder? You kill the Rhino, you are responsible for killing the Rhino. You buy Rhino horn, you are responsible for buying illegal goods and creating demand. (which is not equal to actually killing a Rhino or a human being!) You fail as a government to prevent import of illegal goods, you are responsible for not controlling imports with 100% accuracy. You tell me if you know of any country in the world that is capable of preventing imports of highly sought after illegal goods to a degree that puts producers of these illegal goods out of business. If that was possible there would not be any illegal drugs in the West.
  - chillacy 10y ago
    I think the poster was pointing out that the statement > everyone can only be held accountable for his own actions, not for the actions of others. is very broad, and isn't at all supported by just one example of drug user/cartel, because there are plenty of other cases where that's not true.
    - DominikR 10y ago
      I honestly can't come up with a single example where someone should be held accountable for something someone else did except for cases that involve enabling others who suffer for some kind of psychological illness or are otherwise incapable of acting responsibly as one would expect from an adult.
      - chillacy 10y ago
        Sure, you just came up with a couple counterexamples on your own. Another one: If you're a mob boss and you tell your henchmen to murder someone, you're also on the line. That's a pretty direct one. But you could also argue that the witness who accepted a bribe to lie for the mafia is guilty of something, as may be the guy who stocked the weapons that day, or their getaway driver. And at least legally, in the US, if your buddy is robbing the bank and you're his getaway driver, and he kills a police officer before dying himself, you're now on the line for murdering that police officer. I think there's really a sliding scale of complicitness which makes it pretty complex.
  - djrogers 10y ago
    > You kill the Rhino, you are responsible for killing the Rhino. You buy Rhino horn, you are responsible for buying illegal goods and creating demand. (which is not equal to actually killing a Rhino or a human being!) If you buy an illegaly obtained human heart, are you not culpable for the death of the former owner? If you hire a mercenary to obtaining a human heart, are you completely free from all blame for the subsequent murder?
    - 10y ago
richardw 10y ago
Agreed. Everyone can only be held accountable for their own actions. So let those who can influence demand do so, and let those who can control supply do so.

richardw 10y ago

Throwing up our hands and saying "China is not responsible because not every variable is within our control" is counterproductive. You're assuming I make China solely responsible for this. I do not. However it would be nice for all parties who are able to reduce impact, to do so within the gamut of their responsibility and influence. Africa must take responsibility for managing poachers and local smuggling networks, and other countries can work to reduce demand. China has an enormous populace so has a massive influence over demand. Pressure must be applied to all points of the problem.