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> government is a representation of the will of the governed No. By this reasoning "we are all murderers." A democratic system means that 51% of the people ca

> government is a representation of the will of the governed No. By this reasoning "we are all murderers." A democratic system means that 51% of the people can legally deprive the other 49% of basic liberties.

wongarsu 10y ago
>A democratic system means that 51% of the people can legally deprive the other 49% of basic liberties. That's an implementation quirk of some democracies, not an inherent feature. Even worse: in first-past-the-post systems like the US and GB you can elect 51% of the representatives with far less than 51% of the people. On the other hand, "basic liberties" are usually protected by some for of constitution that requires 66% of representatives to change. Sometimes protections are even more extreme: Germany is considered democratic, but its constitution contains two articles that can not be lawfully changed, no matter how large the consens (one about basic rights, one about the form of government). Democracies can have arbitrarily strong protections for minorities and basic liberties, there is no requirement for democracies to be governed by simple absolute majorities (and few if any are).
ptaipale 10y ago
What you describe is "dictatorship of the majority"; at least over here, when people talk about democracy, they mean "liberal democracy", i.e. as Wikipedia puts it, a variant of representative democracy that may include elements such as political pluralism; equality before the law; the right to petition elected officials for redress of grievances; due process; civil liberties; human rights; and elements of civil society outside the government.
- fiatjaf 10y ago
  So we never had any example of "liberal democracy" in the entire history. I don't know of a single government that hasn't taken money from some citizens against their will to use it in benefit of other citizens.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    If you're equating "liberal democracy" with "no taxation", then we're talking about a different thing. That's not what I quoted above.
    - fiatjaf 10y ago
      You quoted "equality before the law". I don't see how people can be equal if some are taxed and the money is given to others. I know you must be thinking that "equality before the law" is just to have a clear law like "everybody will be taxed if they meet so and so requirements" and apply that to everybody, but consider that a law could be written in exactly that same way, but instead saying "every people will be taxed if they are black". The distinctions the law make are arbitrary.
fit2rule 10y ago
A democratic government is the responsibility of the people it governs - even if you didn't elect them, the fact that you choose to continue to be governed by them, and that they gain all their powers from this investment of your own sovereignty into their state, means that you are in fact responsible for your government. Period. It doesn't change just because you don't like it. American citizens, pro- and anti- the American state, nevertheless gain their protections as citizens from participating in that state, large and small. Citizens are responsible for their governments, who have no powers otherwise. And we all know: the corruption of government begins with its secrets. That we, citizens, are unwilling to deal with the secrets that corrupt us all, is very telling in this day and age ..
- fiatjaf 10y ago
  Please tell me what should I do to stop "investing my own sovereignty". That's not clear.

wongarsu 10y ago

>A democratic system means that 51% of the people can legally deprive the other 49% of basic liberties. That's an implementation quirk of some democracies, not an inherent feature. Even worse: in first-past-the-post systems like the US and GB you can elect 51% of the representatives with far less than 51% of the people. On the other hand, "basic liberties" are usually protected by some for of constitution that requires 66% of representatives to change. Sometimes protections are even more extreme: Germany is considered democratic, but its constitution contains two articles that can not be lawfully changed, no matter how large the consens (one about basic rights, one about the form of government). Democracies can have arbitrarily strong protections for minorities and basic liberties, there is no requirement for democracies to be governed by simple absolute majorities (and few if any are).

ptaipale 10y ago

What you describe is "dictatorship of the majority"; at least over here, when people talk about democracy, they mean "liberal democracy", i.e. as Wikipedia puts it, a variant of representative democracy that may include elements such as political pluralism; equality before the law; the right to petition elected officials for redress of grievances; due process; civil liberties; human rights; and elements of civil society outside the government.

fiatjaf 10y ago
So we never had any example of "liberal democracy" in the entire history. I don't know of a single government that hasn't taken money from some citizens against their will to use it in benefit of other citizens.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  If you're equating "liberal democracy" with "no taxation", then we're talking about a different thing. That's not what I quoted above.
  - fiatjaf 10y ago
    You quoted "equality before the law". I don't see how people can be equal if some are taxed and the money is given to others. I know you must be thinking that "equality before the law" is just to have a clear law like "everybody will be taxed if they meet so and so requirements" and apply that to everybody, but consider that a law could be written in exactly that same way, but instead saying "every people will be taxed if they are black". The distinctions the law make are arbitrary.

fit2rule 10y ago

A democratic government is the responsibility of the people it governs - even if you didn't elect them, the fact that you choose to continue to be governed by them, and that they gain all their powers from this investment of your own sovereignty into their state, means that you are in fact responsible for your government. Period. It doesn't change just because you don't like it. American citizens, pro- and anti- the American state, nevertheless gain their protections as citizens from participating in that state, large and small. Citizens are responsible for their governments, who have no powers otherwise. And we all know: the corruption of government begins with its secrets. That we, citizens, are unwilling to deal with the secrets that corrupt us all, is very telling in this day and age ..

fiatjaf 10y ago
Please tell me what should I do to stop "investing my own sovereignty". That's not clear.