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> their sales are unchanged or even increasing since 2012 when the Model S was launched. You need to look at 2014/2015 really, which is when the Model S starte

> their sales are unchanged or even increasing since 2012 when the Model S was launched. You need to look at 2014/2015 really, which is when the Model S started being produced in decent numbers. The Model S outsold most other 'large luxury' vehicles in the US in 2015, including the Audi A7 and A8 combined, and the BMW 6 and 7 series combined, and the Mercedez S-class. http://gas2.org/2016/02/15/tesla-model-s-outsells-mercedes-bmw-audi-and-porsche-in-us/ http://gas2.org/2016/02/15/tesla-model-s-outsells-mercedes-b... edit: re: rates of change: Model S sales increased 50% during 2015, Audi A7,A8, BMW 6,7 Mercedez S all down 5% or more.

kuschku 10y ago
Just Mercedes’ luxury cars combined sold more than the Tesla S.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- codeulike 10y ago
  By about 12%. And they are losing ground.
Xylakant 10y ago
outsold is a different claim than what the GP claimed. It also doesn't say anything about profitability. A lot of startups outsell the competition at a loss per unit. And then try the "just sell more" approach. Things may work out for Tesla if they can ensure their funding helps them reach the end of the runway and lift of - or not. And then "outsold" will be a sad feather in the cap.
- codeulike 10y ago
  My link shows that Tesla sales increased and all the others went down (comparing 2014 to 2015). If Tesla just sold the Model S, they would be profitable. Margins are pretty good for each Model S. But selling just the Model S is not the plan, hence the huge cash burn.
  - ddeck 10y ago
    >If Tesla just sold the Model S, they would be profitable. Margins are pretty good for each Model S. But selling just the Model S is not the plan, hence the huge cash burn. I'm curious where you draw this conclusion from. Tesla definitely burns a ton of cash, but it's primarily capex ($1.6bn in 2015), which doesn't directly affect their profitability. 2015 R&D was $718 million. Even if we assume none of that is related to the model S and add it back, they still would have lost $170 million (net profit). And this is the marginal profitability, ignoring all the R&D expense from prior years that went into the model S. Telsa are loss leading, hoping to grow their brand and technology to the point and out compete their rivals by the time the vehicles are truly profitable. If the capital markets remain favorable to them for a long enough time, they might just do it. Or established brands may acquire their technology once they deem the market to be sufficiently mature for them. Or we may have a problem in the markets, and Tesla's continuing cash requirements might lead them into difficulty.
    - codeulike 10y ago
      I'm basing it on what Elon Musk said at the 2015 North American International Auto Show. And the often mentioned 20% margin on the Model S. http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-everything-elon-musk-said-at-the-detroit-auto-show-2015-1 http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-everything-elon-musk-sai...
      - ddeck 10y ago
        I'm typically inclined to look at the financials rather than what executives have to say ;) I presume he's talking gross margin, which excludes prior R&D (except capitalized), marketing, distribution & sales costs, office/admin expenses, financing costs etc.
_Codemonkeyism 10y ago
If you compare a Model S to a S-class Mercedes, you have never driven a S-class or be driven around in one. Just because Tesla is overpriced for hipsters doesn't mean you can compare it to other cars in the price bracket.
- PietdeVries 10y ago
  There is price, and there is cost... Living in the Netherlands, the price of a Tesla is around 100.000 euros. However, if I can lease the thing, the actual cost (due to tax benefit, etc) drops like a rock to a level that compares to a small, cheap car. For full electric cars you hardly pay taxes because the government wants to stimulate this clean way of transportation. Now comparing to a Mercedes with a similar price is wrong, simply because the Mercedes with a similar price is costing much, much more in day to day operation: more tax (heavy car = high tax), no green car, so more taxes). I believe that at least for the Netherlands, most hybrid or full-electric cars are driven by people that have a company car. We just love tax refunds. We hate the hassle of charging, so many hybrid cars in 2015 (Mitsubishi Outlander is a good example) were driven on petrol - not electricity.
  - kgwgk 10y ago
    > more tax (heavy car = high tax) The weights of the Tesla Model S and the Mercedea Class S are pretty much identical.
    - PanMan 10y ago
      but, at least in the Netherlands, they are taxed way differently. I also heard people that leased them, and in the end the price over a few years is comparable to a €30K car, not another €100K car.
      - kgwgk 10y ago
        Yes, I understand that. I just pointed out that the reason is not that the Mercedes is heavy and the Tesla light.
rattray 10y ago
Thanks very much for digging up those numbers!
largote 10y ago
Except a Tesla S is more comparable to an A6/5 series/E class in regards to size and interior quality.
ams6110 10y ago
The thing is, anyone who wants a Tesla model S probably bought it last year or this year. Anyone who wants an S class or a nice Audi or BMW may have bought one three or four years or more years ago. A spike in sales in the first year or two of real availability, resulting in "outselling" other luxury cars, is not really surprising. It will be more interesting if it keeps up after all the people who want an EV already have one.
- NotSammyHagar 10y ago
  They said that in 2013. I got mine in 2012 (when there really were few model s). Then they said 2014 was the top, then 2015. We'll see if 2016 is the top.

kuschku 10y ago

Just Mercedes’ luxury cars combined sold more than the Tesla S.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
codeulike 10y ago
By about 12%. And they are losing ground.

Xylakant 10y ago

outsold is a different claim than what the GP claimed. It also doesn't say anything about profitability. A lot of startups outsell the competition at a loss per unit. And then try the "just sell more" approach. Things may work out for Tesla if they can ensure their funding helps them reach the end of the runway and lift of - or not. And then "outsold" will be a sad feather in the cap.

codeulike 10y ago
My link shows that Tesla sales increased and all the others went down (comparing 2014 to 2015). If Tesla just sold the Model S, they would be profitable. Margins are pretty good for each Model S. But selling just the Model S is not the plan, hence the huge cash burn.
- ddeck 10y ago
  >If Tesla just sold the Model S, they would be profitable. Margins are pretty good for each Model S. But selling just the Model S is not the plan, hence the huge cash burn. I'm curious where you draw this conclusion from. Tesla definitely burns a ton of cash, but it's primarily capex ($1.6bn in 2015), which doesn't directly affect their profitability. 2015 R&D was $718 million. Even if we assume none of that is related to the model S and add it back, they still would have lost $170 million (net profit). And this is the marginal profitability, ignoring all the R&D expense from prior years that went into the model S. Telsa are loss leading, hoping to grow their brand and technology to the point and out compete their rivals by the time the vehicles are truly profitable. If the capital markets remain favorable to them for a long enough time, they might just do it. Or established brands may acquire their technology once they deem the market to be sufficiently mature for them. Or we may have a problem in the markets, and Tesla's continuing cash requirements might lead them into difficulty.
  - codeulike 10y ago
    I'm basing it on what Elon Musk said at the 2015 North American International Auto Show. And the often mentioned 20% margin on the Model S. http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-everything-elon-musk-said-at-the-detroit-auto-show-2015-1 http://uk.businessinsider.com/heres-everything-elon-musk-sai...
    - ddeck 10y ago
      I'm typically inclined to look at the financials rather than what executives have to say ;) I presume he's talking gross margin, which excludes prior R&D (except capitalized), marketing, distribution & sales costs, office/admin expenses, financing costs etc.

_Codemonkeyism 10y ago

If you compare a Model S to a S-class Mercedes, you have never driven a S-class or be driven around in one. Just because Tesla is overpriced for hipsters doesn't mean you can compare it to other cars in the price bracket.

PietdeVries 10y ago
There is price, and there is cost... Living in the Netherlands, the price of a Tesla is around 100.000 euros. However, if I can lease the thing, the actual cost (due to tax benefit, etc) drops like a rock to a level that compares to a small, cheap car. For full electric cars you hardly pay taxes because the government wants to stimulate this clean way of transportation. Now comparing to a Mercedes with a similar price is wrong, simply because the Mercedes with a similar price is costing much, much more in day to day operation: more tax (heavy car = high tax), no green car, so more taxes). I believe that at least for the Netherlands, most hybrid or full-electric cars are driven by people that have a company car. We just love tax refunds. We hate the hassle of charging, so many hybrid cars in 2015 (Mitsubishi Outlander is a good example) were driven on petrol - not electricity.
- kgwgk 10y ago
  > more tax (heavy car = high tax) The weights of the Tesla Model S and the Mercedea Class S are pretty much identical.
  - PanMan 10y ago
    but, at least in the Netherlands, they are taxed way differently. I also heard people that leased them, and in the end the price over a few years is comparable to a €30K car, not another €100K car.
    - kgwgk 10y ago
      Yes, I understand that. I just pointed out that the reason is not that the Mercedes is heavy and the Tesla light.

rattray 10y ago

Thanks very much for digging up those numbers!

largote 10y ago

Except a Tesla S is more comparable to an A6/5 series/E class in regards to size and interior quality.

ams6110 10y ago

The thing is, anyone who wants a Tesla model S probably bought it last year or this year. Anyone who wants an S class or a nice Audi or BMW may have bought one three or four years or more years ago. A spike in sales in the first year or two of real availability, resulting in "outselling" other luxury cars, is not really surprising. It will be more interesting if it keeps up after all the people who want an EV already have one.

NotSammyHagar 10y ago
They said that in 2013. I got mine in 2012 (when there really were few model s). Then they said 2014 was the top, then 2015. We'll see if 2016 is the top.