5 ms·

If I were a young man, and I was not in the top quartile, or really, top decile, of my high school class, I would be looking real hard at getting into a good tr

by douche 10y ago

If I were a young man, and I was not in the top quartile, or really, top decile, of my high school class, I would be looking real hard at getting into a good trade, rather than going to college. There's nice money in being an electrician, a plumber, a welder, a mechanic. It's relatively low stress, and you leave your work behind when you punch out. Much better than putting yourself massively into debt to try to get a degree of increasing uselessness, particularly if you don't have the grades or the brains to get into and be able to hack a good school and a tough program. I've known too many people that really weren't ready or equipped to go to college, but got pushed along by guidance counselors and the "Everybody goes to college" rhetoric, and the only result was them racking up tens of thousands in debt and dropping out after a semester or two. The other traditional option for those that aren't really cut out for higher education is the military, but they are starting to tighten up again, as I understand from my friends that are still in.

lucidguppy 10y ago
Really needs to be a business certificate that dovetails with a trade - so you can manage your business while you work your trade. Your body can wear out pretty fast with hard labor so you need to start your own business at some point.
- epalmer 10y ago
  This is a great idea. I don't think community colleges can do this, at least today. Having a focused night time set of classes in practical methods of running a business would be required. Edit: typo
- jschwartzi 10y ago
  Most skilled trades are not hard labor. If you're a plumber, you might only bust rocks or dig ditches 10% of the time. And it also depends on what you specialize in. The guy that replaces your toilet and your busted water lines might know how to build a septic system, but he probably hasn't done it in a while. Honestly I'd be really tempted to get out of software and go into a trade. It'd be a lot less work.
  - random_upvoter 10y ago
    I think you're underestimating what it means to perform a physically demanding job. It's not like that weekend you spent painting your appartment. It is something you do five days a week, for weeks and months on end. In my late thirties I was sick of being a software developer and I did a two year stint of being an electrician for a big construction company. It was a wonderful experience and I learned a ton of stuff about a ton of stuff, but in the end I was very happy to go back to a heated room where I can work sitting in an ergonomic chair while sipping a cup of coffee. Honestly, if your body was not trained to do this from your late teens or early twenties you will likely not last.
fungi 10y ago
To dumb to go to uni is horrible assumption to make of anyone. You should be free to follow your passion/whims and study whatever they want, love it, hate it, fuck it up, drop out, and try something else. Even more so when you are young inexperienced and finding your way in the world. > and the only result was them racking up tens of thousands in debt That's the problem America needs to solve.
- aianus 10y ago
  I don't agree that the taxpayer should pick up the tab for some 18-year-old to have fun for four years. Do whatever you want, but don't expect others to pay for you.
  - FussyZeus 10y ago
    I would disagree here. If you look at this solely from the perspective of someone screwing around in the public dollar sure, it's easy to say screw that. If however you instead look at it like: "This person tried this, really didn't like it, is not good at it, and probably shouldn't do it", why should we then force them into a field they can't generate value in -or- damn them to a lifetime of wage slavery to pay for the schooling they can't use? In my mind, college exists to prepare a pupil for a given field and if said pupil for any number of reasons cannot do that upon exiting that institution, why should they pay for it?
    - pliny 10y ago
      >In my mind, college exists to prepare a pupil for a given field and if said pupil for any number of reasons cannot do that upon exiting that institution, why should they pay for it? Because that was the agreement they made with the institution. Either way someone is paying for it, it can be the person who got the (partial) education, or it can be someone\s that happens to live in the same state as the person who got the education. Even if it doesn't make sense to you that people who fail their studies should pay their debts to their schools, it makes even less sense that you would transfer that debt from the pupil to someone who was neither partner to the decision to undertake studies nor a beneficiary of pupil's studies.
Chris2048 10y ago
This misses that those trades pay well because there is a lack in supply. If people are starting to realise this, in the future there will be more tradesmen, and then there will be a surplus of supply, and pay will go down. As such, if you can obtain it, an engineering degree is has a little more insurance - these types of degrees are not useless, in fact, STEM degrees are becoming more and more valuable. I have a low opinion of the military, or at least entering at a low-level. Maybe for those with discipline issues? But it's a gamble - you can literally die, without the kind of pay other dangerous jobs get. Plus, I feel you're putting your moral agency up for sale...
- douche 10y ago
  I don't have the stats, but I suspect it would take a lot of new people in the trades to replace just the natural attrition as boomers retire. One of the unfortunate consequences of a lot of the unionized industrial environment is that in many cases seniority ruled, and the young workers got pink slips every time there was a round of layoffs. Now the old grognards are retiring, but there is no one in the mid-level to step into their places - there are huge amounts of institutional knowledge evaporating. I wouldn't argue against an engineering degree, if you've got the chops and the discipline to finish it. Generic liberal arts fluff? More of a liability than an asset - particularly if you don't actually finish it. Hope you like bartending or waiting tables... We may be coming from different places. I grew up in a very rural area, and especially in my parent's generation, but also mine to a large degree, the military was a way to get out of crushing poverty, learn skills, see something of the world, and maybe get a subsidized education.
  - a3n 10y ago
    > I wouldn't argue against an engineering degree, if you've got the chops and the discipline to finish it. Generic liberal arts fluff? More of a liability than an asset - particularly if you don't actually finish it. Hope you like bartending or waiting tables... I was just reading the History department's site, for no real reason, at the Uni where my kid goes (he's EE). Their "why study history" statement included being the foundation of a later graduate degree. Which I think is appropriate; it's great to have lawyers and MBAs with a diversity of backgrounds and interests, including history, art, engineering, etc. It used to be that any undergraduate degree would serve you well enough. But today things are so specialized and hyper-competetive that some degrees (the "fluff") are indeed not economically worthwhile if you stop at undergrad. Not to say that some people shouldn't pursue them, but they should know up front what the limitations are, and that the degree itself won't pay itself off.

by douche 10y ago

lucidguppy 10y ago

Really needs to be a business certificate that dovetails with a trade - so you can manage your business while you work your trade. Your body can wear out pretty fast with hard labor so you need to start your own business at some point.

epalmer 10y ago
This is a great idea. I don't think community colleges can do this, at least today. Having a focused night time set of classes in practical methods of running a business would be required. Edit: typo
jschwartzi 10y ago
Most skilled trades are not hard labor. If you're a plumber, you might only bust rocks or dig ditches 10% of the time. And it also depends on what you specialize in. The guy that replaces your toilet and your busted water lines might know how to build a septic system, but he probably hasn't done it in a while. Honestly I'd be really tempted to get out of software and go into a trade. It'd be a lot less work.
- random_upvoter 10y ago
  I think you're underestimating what it means to perform a physically demanding job. It's not like that weekend you spent painting your appartment. It is something you do five days a week, for weeks and months on end. In my late thirties I was sick of being a software developer and I did a two year stint of being an electrician for a big construction company. It was a wonderful experience and I learned a ton of stuff about a ton of stuff, but in the end I was very happy to go back to a heated room where I can work sitting in an ergonomic chair while sipping a cup of coffee. Honestly, if your body was not trained to do this from your late teens or early twenties you will likely not last.

fungi 10y ago

To dumb to go to uni is horrible assumption to make of anyone. You should be free to follow your passion/whims and study whatever they want, love it, hate it, fuck it up, drop out, and try something else. Even more so when you are young inexperienced and finding your way in the world. > and the only result was them racking up tens of thousands in debt That's the problem America needs to solve.

aianus 10y ago
I don't agree that the taxpayer should pick up the tab for some 18-year-old to have fun for four years. Do whatever you want, but don't expect others to pay for you.
- FussyZeus 10y ago
  I would disagree here. If you look at this solely from the perspective of someone screwing around in the public dollar sure, it's easy to say screw that. If however you instead look at it like: "This person tried this, really didn't like it, is not good at it, and probably shouldn't do it", why should we then force them into a field they can't generate value in -or- damn them to a lifetime of wage slavery to pay for the schooling they can't use? In my mind, college exists to prepare a pupil for a given field and if said pupil for any number of reasons cannot do that upon exiting that institution, why should they pay for it?
  - pliny 10y ago
    >In my mind, college exists to prepare a pupil for a given field and if said pupil for any number of reasons cannot do that upon exiting that institution, why should they pay for it? Because that was the agreement they made with the institution. Either way someone is paying for it, it can be the person who got the (partial) education, or it can be someone\s that happens to live in the same state as the person who got the education. Even if it doesn't make sense to you that people who fail their studies should pay their debts to their schools, it makes even less sense that you would transfer that debt from the pupil to someone who was neither partner to the decision to undertake studies nor a beneficiary of pupil's studies.

Chris2048 10y ago

This misses that those trades pay well because there is a lack in supply. If people are starting to realise this, in the future there will be more tradesmen, and then there will be a surplus of supply, and pay will go down. As such, if you can obtain it, an engineering degree is has a little more insurance - these types of degrees are not useless, in fact, STEM degrees are becoming more and more valuable. I have a low opinion of the military, or at least entering at a low-level. Maybe for those with discipline issues? But it's a gamble - you can literally die, without the kind of pay other dangerous jobs get. Plus, I feel you're putting your moral agency up for sale...

douche 10y ago
I don't have the stats, but I suspect it would take a lot of new people in the trades to replace just the natural attrition as boomers retire. One of the unfortunate consequences of a lot of the unionized industrial environment is that in many cases seniority ruled, and the young workers got pink slips every time there was a round of layoffs. Now the old grognards are retiring, but there is no one in the mid-level to step into their places - there are huge amounts of institutional knowledge evaporating. I wouldn't argue against an engineering degree, if you've got the chops and the discipline to finish it. Generic liberal arts fluff? More of a liability than an asset - particularly if you don't actually finish it. Hope you like bartending or waiting tables... We may be coming from different places. I grew up in a very rural area, and especially in my parent's generation, but also mine to a large degree, the military was a way to get out of crushing poverty, learn skills, see something of the world, and maybe get a subsidized education.
- a3n 10y ago
  > I wouldn't argue against an engineering degree, if you've got the chops and the discipline to finish it. Generic liberal arts fluff? More of a liability than an asset - particularly if you don't actually finish it. Hope you like bartending or waiting tables... I was just reading the History department's site, for no real reason, at the Uni where my kid goes (he's EE). Their "why study history" statement included being the foundation of a later graduate degree. Which I think is appropriate; it's great to have lawyers and MBAs with a diversity of backgrounds and interests, including history, art, engineering, etc. It used to be that any undergraduate degree would serve you well enough. But today things are so specialized and hyper-competetive that some degrees (the "fluff") are indeed not economically worthwhile if you stop at undergrad. Not to say that some people shouldn't pursue them, but they should know up front what the limitations are, and that the degree itself won't pay itself off.