6 ms·

Loneliness can be depressing, but it may have helped humans survive

138 points by wallflower 10y ago

anexprogrammer 10y ago
"3 points by wallflower 1 hour ago " Nothing against the article, but how is this #11 on the frontpage? Did HN make ranking easier recently?
- sctb 10y ago
  Ranking is relative, so on less busy days (such as today's holiday in the US and Canada) stories with fewer points can be ranked higher than usual. You can always email questions like this to hn@ycombinator.com to avoid cluttering the discussion threads.
  - sundarurfriend 10y ago
    What's the holiday in US and Canada today? It is (was) a holiday in many places of India too, due to a Hindu festival called Vinayaka Chaturthi.
    - whorleater 10y ago
      It's Labor Day over here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Day
  - mkagenius 10y ago
    > to avoid cluttering the discussion threads. this part was not that necessary
  - jbpetersen 10y ago
    Better yet: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
PieterH 10y ago
As if our brains magically emerged from a billion years of evolution with complex mechanisms that did not help us survive... :) I tried (like a good nerd) to reverse engineer all our emotions in my book "The Psychopath Code." Loneliness fell into my group of "Tribal Emotions" (thus evolved to help us form extended families), and here is how I defined it: "Loneliness - the emotion of being disconnected. You feel physical pain in your intestines and chest when you see others enjoying themselves. You sleep lightly and wake often. Your immune system starts to slow and you start to get sick. Your metabolism slows down, yet you eat more often than usual. Your circulation slows, and you feel cold." http://content.psychopathcode.com/chapter6.html http://content.psychopathcode.com/chapter6.html
- XVII 10y ago
  very interesting stuff you have written there, going to start reading it now :)
- EGreg 10y ago
  Indeed, a very interesting read! Can you list references or is this all original research? About the rule breakers and psychopaths - I think most people actually switch to reward/punishment reasoning for rule following when empathy and social feedback is lacking. For example, if you know that no one will get hurt (eg running a red light with no cars around) the reasoning switches primarily to risk/reward (are there cameras or cops?) and habits (mental shortcuts and pathways that have been reinforced). Most of our decisions are made out of habits trained on common situations, and only when the underlying assumptions are violated do we start re-evaluating the stories and heuristics we tell ourselves for our actions.
  - PieterH 10y ago
    I'm sorry to say it's mostly original research, though I did do a lot of research into the studies people have done on the various emotions and particularly their physical manifestations. I did not keep references because I was lazy and generally don't do that (this is not academic work and I absolutely want to keep it readable for non-academics). Regarding rules, I suspect we apply different sets of rules in different situations. Running a red light breaks "would the cops catch me?" yet does not break "would my friends be angry with me?" I've not looked into habits much. They are obviously powerful shortcuts that save on cognitive workload.
throwanem 10y ago
> the risk of dying over a two-decade period was 50 percent higher for lonely me Cri de coeur or simple typo? Inquiring minds want to know!
- PieterH 10y ago
  It's a well known problem with some journalists, they simply can't finish their
  - throwanem 10y ago
    You mean they can't finish their wo
    - PieterH 10y ago
      It is incredibly infuriating and yet ye
narrator 10y ago
Evolutionary Psychology is like Leibnitizian Optimisim [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds] where God is replaced by evolution. It does nothing to aid in our understanding except to reassure us that everything that is is as it should be. It's essentially an ideology of apathy. Leibnitz's Argument goes like so: >1. God [Evolution] has the idea of infinitely many universes. >2. Only one of these universes can actually exist. >3. God[Evolution]'s choices are subject to the principle of sufficient reason, that is, God[Evolution] has reason to choose one thing or another. >4. God[Evolution] is good. >5. Therefore, the universe that God[Evolution] chose to exist is the best of all possible worlds.[1] FYI, Voltaire made a nice parody of this ideology in his book Candide.
- PieterH 10y ago
  There is a profound difference between magical thinking and science. Once you build scientific frameworks (such as EP is part of), you can move much faster in interesting and useful directions that may seem unrelated and yet all connect together. For example I've used a lot of psychology (based on EP, not Freud) in constructing communities that build open source software. And we are using this thing called the "Internet" that lets total strangers converse, at no cost. And largely built on free and open source. Amazing, huh? If you believe that science does "nothing to aid in our understanding," and yet you are quick to profit from the fruits of the rational world that science built, that would make you rather a hypocrite.
  - rdtsc 10y ago
    > I've used a lot of psychology (based on EP, not Freud) in constructing communities that build open source software. Very interesting. If it is not a secret, can you share a list of guidelines or tips?
    - PieterH 10y ago
      Sure, I've written a book "Social Architecture" on this, and many articles. You can read the book freely at https://www.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/social-architecture/details https://www.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/social-architecture/de.... It's also in print and Kindle from Amazon. The psychology of collaboration is (in my model, which is of course wrong, just accurate enough to be more useful than ignorance) based on emotions that we've evolved to work together. Most of what I tested and documented over the last decade came from study of failure (most projects fail and you can learn a lot by looking into why), and experience of how to make communities that could survive the kinds of conflict we see. Actually getting a full model for the emotions took a lot longer, finished that a year or so ago. You can see the results in e.g. the C4 process, our RFC for working together in the ZeroMQ community: http://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:42/C4/ http://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:42/C4/ My articles are on http://hintjens.com http://hintjens.com, starting in 2010 or so.
GavinMcG 10y ago
Previous related article and discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12338817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12338817
- rosstex 10y ago
  So how do we reconcile them?

138 points by wallflower 10y ago

"3 points by wallflower 1 hour ago " Nothing against the article, but how is this #11 on the frontpage? Did HN make ranking easier recently?

sctb 10y ago
Ranking is relative, so on less busy days (such as today's holiday in the US and Canada) stories with fewer points can be ranked higher than usual. You can always email questions like this to hn@ycombinator.com to avoid cluttering the discussion threads.
- sundarurfriend 10y ago
  What's the holiday in US and Canada today? It is (was) a holiday in many places of India too, due to a Hindu festival called Vinayaka Chaturthi.
  - whorleater 10y ago
    It's Labor Day over here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Day
- mkagenius 10y ago
  > to avoid cluttering the discussion threads. this part was not that necessary
- jbpetersen 10y ago
  Better yet: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html

PieterH 10y ago

As if our brains magically emerged from a billion years of evolution with complex mechanisms that did not help us survive... :) I tried (like a good nerd) to reverse engineer all our emotions in my book "The Psychopath Code." Loneliness fell into my group of "Tribal Emotions" (thus evolved to help us form extended families), and here is how I defined it: "Loneliness - the emotion of being disconnected. You feel physical pain in your intestines and chest when you see others enjoying themselves. You sleep lightly and wake often. Your immune system starts to slow and you start to get sick. Your metabolism slows down, yet you eat more often than usual. Your circulation slows, and you feel cold." http://content.psychopathcode.com/chapter6.html http://content.psychopathcode.com/chapter6.html

XVII 10y ago
very interesting stuff you have written there, going to start reading it now :)
EGreg 10y ago
Indeed, a very interesting read! Can you list references or is this all original research? About the rule breakers and psychopaths - I think most people actually switch to reward/punishment reasoning for rule following when empathy and social feedback is lacking. For example, if you know that no one will get hurt (eg running a red light with no cars around) the reasoning switches primarily to risk/reward (are there cameras or cops?) and habits (mental shortcuts and pathways that have been reinforced). Most of our decisions are made out of habits trained on common situations, and only when the underlying assumptions are violated do we start re-evaluating the stories and heuristics we tell ourselves for our actions.
- PieterH 10y ago
  I'm sorry to say it's mostly original research, though I did do a lot of research into the studies people have done on the various emotions and particularly their physical manifestations. I did not keep references because I was lazy and generally don't do that (this is not academic work and I absolutely want to keep it readable for non-academics). Regarding rules, I suspect we apply different sets of rules in different situations. Running a red light breaks "would the cops catch me?" yet does not break "would my friends be angry with me?" I've not looked into habits much. They are obviously powerful shortcuts that save on cognitive workload.

throwanem 10y ago

> the risk of dying over a two-decade period was 50 percent higher for lonely me Cri de coeur or simple typo? Inquiring minds want to know!

PieterH 10y ago
It's a well known problem with some journalists, they simply can't finish their
- throwanem 10y ago
  You mean they can't finish their wo
  - PieterH 10y ago
    It is incredibly infuriating and yet ye

narrator 10y ago

Evolutionary Psychology is like Leibnitizian Optimisim [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds] where God is replaced by evolution. It does nothing to aid in our understanding except to reassure us that everything that is is as it should be. It's essentially an ideology of apathy. Leibnitz's Argument goes like so: >1. God [Evolution] has the idea of infinitely many universes. >2. Only one of these universes can actually exist. >3. God[Evolution]'s choices are subject to the principle of sufficient reason, that is, God[Evolution] has reason to choose one thing or another. >4. God[Evolution] is good. >5. Therefore, the universe that God[Evolution] chose to exist is the best of all possible worlds.[1] FYI, Voltaire made a nice parody of this ideology in his book Candide.

PieterH 10y ago
There is a profound difference between magical thinking and science. Once you build scientific frameworks (such as EP is part of), you can move much faster in interesting and useful directions that may seem unrelated and yet all connect together. For example I've used a lot of psychology (based on EP, not Freud) in constructing communities that build open source software. And we are using this thing called the "Internet" that lets total strangers converse, at no cost. And largely built on free and open source. Amazing, huh? If you believe that science does "nothing to aid in our understanding," and yet you are quick to profit from the fruits of the rational world that science built, that would make you rather a hypocrite.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  > I've used a lot of psychology (based on EP, not Freud) in constructing communities that build open source software. Very interesting. If it is not a secret, can you share a list of guidelines or tips?
  - PieterH 10y ago
    Sure, I've written a book "Social Architecture" on this, and many articles. You can read the book freely at https://www.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/social-architecture/details https://www.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/social-architecture/de.... It's also in print and Kindle from Amazon. The psychology of collaboration is (in my model, which is of course wrong, just accurate enough to be more useful than ignorance) based on emotions that we've evolved to work together. Most of what I tested and documented over the last decade came from study of failure (most projects fail and you can learn a lot by looking into why), and experience of how to make communities that could survive the kinds of conflict we see. Actually getting a full model for the emotions took a lot longer, finished that a year or so ago. You can see the results in e.g. the C4 process, our RFC for working together in the ZeroMQ community: http://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:42/C4/ http://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:42/C4/ My articles are on http://hintjens.com http://hintjens.com, starting in 2010 or so.

GavinMcG 10y ago

Previous related article and discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12338817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12338817

rosstex 10y ago
So how do we reconcile them?