11 ms·

Reasons to Stop Ignoring the Skills Gap

84 points by apsec112 10y ago

CM30 10y ago
Or in other words, the US (and likely a lot of other places) need more plumbers and electricians, but fewer people seem to want to apply for these types of jobs because they're not seen as 'trendy'. Which isn't surprising, given how white collar work in a startup or internet focused company seems to have almost become a default assumption in the last few years or so.
- martinko 10y ago
  Goes hand in hand with the oversubscribed university system.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    Yeah, but not all subjects are the same. If we had too many engineers.. Well, that wouldn't be a problem, if it's even possible...
    - mac01021 10y ago
      It would be a problem for many of those engineers, if they were unable to find, on their own, commercially viable applications for their skills.
      - newjersey 10y ago
        I agree. It is possible to have too many engineers. People are complaining that there are too many lawyers, for instance. There is no reason it can't happen to us.
        Chris2048 10y ago
        I'm not sure, and engineering degree is very flexible. A friend of mine got a job straight out of university, and in the following years did biological, civil and automotive engineering. Lawyering, in contrast, I believe is fairly specialised - in that it's not as easy to move around between different areas of law? Aslo, people will always complain there are too many lawyers, the economics of law aren't properly market-lead..
        mac01021 10y ago
        > and in the following years did biological, civil and automotive engineering. I would guess that most of what those fields have in common are their quantitative/mathematical nature. Would he have been just as fit for these roles with a degree in Math or Physics?
        Chris2048 10y ago
        I think in all three he used the same kind of software and structural/materials know-how; solid-works or something. I think a math/physics degree might not have the particulars of structural design specifically.
        speeder 10y ago
        My dad is civil engineer. He stopped working with engineering about 15 years ago, because there was too many engineers, the pay was too low to be worth the effort and risk. He recently resumed working with engineering, and unfortunately remembered why he had left in first place, he worked in a couple projects, and most of them had engineers getting pay less than senior construction workers, and companies frequently believed that hiring an engineer was just out of necessity because the law says so, and otherwise would build whatever they want without one. This does had some very, very bad effects, like when an engineer-less construction company thought it was good idea to just demolish some pillars that were in the way of what they wanted to build, and managed to demolish two buildings and damage a third. (this happened in Rio de Janeiro... the person that asked to take down the pillars was the secretary, that looked at the project and concluded that by taking down the pillars they could fit more desks in the office they were furbishing...)
        wott 10y ago
        That's a different concern: a single lawyer is one lawyer too many.
    - jackcosgrove 10y ago
      Of course it's possible. If everyone becomes an engineer, that just means the median engineer is less impressive. Can there be too many people with 130+ IQs? Not sure about that. Right now engineering degrees are valuable as intelligence proxies because the standards are less relaxed than other degrees. If everyone became an engineer this would no longer be the case.
douche 10y ago
If I were a young man, and I was not in the top quartile, or really, top decile, of my high school class, I would be looking real hard at getting into a good trade, rather than going to college. There's nice money in being an electrician, a plumber, a welder, a mechanic. It's relatively low stress, and you leave your work behind when you punch out. Much better than putting yourself massively into debt to try to get a degree of increasing uselessness, particularly if you don't have the grades or the brains to get into and be able to hack a good school and a tough program. I've known too many people that really weren't ready or equipped to go to college, but got pushed along by guidance counselors and the "Everybody goes to college" rhetoric, and the only result was them racking up tens of thousands in debt and dropping out after a semester or two. The other traditional option for those that aren't really cut out for higher education is the military, but they are starting to tighten up again, as I understand from my friends that are still in.
- lucidguppy 10y ago
  Really needs to be a business certificate that dovetails with a trade - so you can manage your business while you work your trade. Your body can wear out pretty fast with hard labor so you need to start your own business at some point.
  - epalmer 10y ago
    This is a great idea. I don't think community colleges can do this, at least today. Having a focused night time set of classes in practical methods of running a business would be required. Edit: typo
  - jschwartzi 10y ago
    Most skilled trades are not hard labor. If you're a plumber, you might only bust rocks or dig ditches 10% of the time. And it also depends on what you specialize in. The guy that replaces your toilet and your busted water lines might know how to build a septic system, but he probably hasn't done it in a while. Honestly I'd be really tempted to get out of software and go into a trade. It'd be a lot less work.
rollthehard6 10y ago
I don't know about the US, but here in the UK, if you are in say, your 40s/50s and out of work, good luck trying to get yourself a trade - apprenticeships are still the province of the young and the government won't help retrain you either. This to me is as big a problem with respect to vocational training as encouraging all school leavers to go to university to get a degree. As people live longer we can't continue to ignore those who would retrain into a trade.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  Wouldn't it be assumed that someone in their 30/40s would have savings to retrain? When I went to uni, there were a few mature students.
  - yardie 10y ago
    If you're unemployed and looking to retrain then what savings? You've probably used up most of it while looking for work in a field that was quickly shrinking.
  - anjc 10y ago
    > Wouldn't it be assumed that someone in their 30/40s would have savings to retrain Maybe 50 years ago? Not for the last 20 years at least. The average 30/40 year old is in debt, nevermind having savings.
  - Avshalom 10y ago
    Lets say I've been making 50k a year since I was 20. I put 5k a year into a retirement account (IRA/401k/$country's equivalent) and another 5k into just a regular saving account to keep it liquid for a rainy day. After taxes and what not that means I'm probably living on 20k a year. I lose my job at 35. I now have 75k in liquid savings. I spend the first 6 months looking for a job, now I'm down to 65k, I decide to retrain. That's 10-20K and 12-24 months if I go to Community College. So I'm dead broke by the end. If I have to buy a car, or break an ankle I'll never make it. So I get a part time job in retail making 10-12k a year before taxes just to help defray the cost and to keep the unemployment gap on my resume smaller. Great I make it through. Except now I'm 37 looking for a job in a field that I have no previous work experience in. So I keep my retail job and try to squeeze enough hours out of it keep everything together, or I get a second job. Now I'm a constantly stressed and exhausted 37 year old paranoid about taking a day off to interview because what if they cut my hours in retaliation for missing a shift who is looking for a job in a field that I have no previous work experience in.
sexbucket 10y ago
> Democrats blamed corporate greed. “Just offer workers more money,” they said, “and the skills gap will close itself.” No seriously. Offer more fucking money.
- mac01021 10y ago
  Why? They've already decided how badly they want to attract talent and set their salary budgets accordingly. You're asking them to pay more than is good for their businesses?
  - quantumhobbit 10y ago
    If their business can't afford market wages, then it was never a viable business in the first place. Market wages are what they are because some other viable business can afford to pay them. Failing businesses don't get to pay less on utilities, why should they get to pay less on wages?
  - pjc50 10y ago
    If I set my phone budget at a dollar, I don't write articles in newspapers complaining that I can't buy an iPhone.
    - mac01021 10y ago
      If you can justify setting your phone budget at a dollar, then your life is structured in such a way that any phone would deliver at most one dollar's worth of value to you and, in this respect, you are highly unusual. If, on the other hand, there are 100,000 companies who all think that adding a insert-your-favorite-kind-of-specialist-here will enable their company to generate $X additional revenue per year, where X is an above-average income that many people would love to earn, but they can't find anyone to do the job for $X, it makes sense to broadcast throughout society the message that this kind of special skill may be worth obtaining.
      - brassic 10y ago
Zelmor 10y ago
Here's the perfect article for IT folks being burned out and looking for a career change.
icantdrive55 10y ago
O.k. I've heard enough of this skills gap from Mike Rowe. I haven't figured out if he's "thick" pretty boy who honestly doesn't understand why a company in the middle of nowhere is having a hard time finding a non-union pipe welder, who's willing to even pay union wages, for a two month job; or Mike is just trying to promote himself as some Skilled Workers Guru so he won't have to work for non-union wages when this money making gig dies out? 1. If you pay a decent salary you will have a line around your union hall with applicants. For example, try to get into local 6 in San Francisco. It's the electric union for the city/county. I believe those guys are getting over $100 hr. including benefits. Most of you will just not get in. 2. Try to be become a union Plumber in New York. There were guys camping out in line just to put their name on the list to take the union test a few weeks ago. 3. I have two extreme examples, but every union that treats its members right; there's no shortage of eager apprentices. O.k. how about the rest of the trades? Where are the workers? Let's look at Mr. Sparky, and Benjamin Franklin brought up as expamples in this piece. Both mainly hire non-union help. Mr. Sparky pays $14.00 hr, and I believe they expect state licensed electricians to apply? They offer lousy working conditions. No wonder they can't get qualified workers? They do charge customers union prices though. Someone has to make a good living? We don't have a shortage of qualified individuals. We have employers/companies that don't pay much more than retail. (I won't be back to argue. I a licenced general contractor, union electrician, and went to automotive school. What I see is a lot of overqualified guys, but are being exploited. I see a lot of foreigners doing these jobs at very low wages. In many cases, they do a good job with the right supervision. So, I'm a hypothetical shop owner. I hire a guy who knows what's he/she is doing, and pay that person just o.k.; and they delegate to a bunch of low wage foreigners. This is how you get rich as an owner in the trades. And you don't hire union if you can avoid it. And you don't hire union help. The point is not hiring union. Did you get it? See your company seems to make more profit without unions? And you have guys like Mike scratching their heads over the lack of eager beavers lining up to fill these jobs.)
- arcosdev 10y ago
  This is the only valid reply to this false and misleading diatribe from Mike Rowe or any of the twits who keep crying about the "skills gap". Why would I break my back and use my expertise for the same amount of money you pay an employee at McDonald's (I am going by Canadian minimum wage)?
0xmohit 10y ago
The hostname in the URL, i.e. mikerowe.com, led me to wonder if it is the same guy as mikerowesoft.com [0]. Apparently, not. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft
- leereeves 10y ago
  No, this Mike Rowe is an actor turned blue collar hero as host of Dirty Jobs.
JohnnyConatus 10y ago
As a business owner, I can tell you that were will never be a day when business owners won't tell you there is shortage of qualified people at the price they want to pay. At a minimum this is due to losing touch with the increasing cost of living and at it's extreme it's just pure greed. I remember the same articles even during the last two recessions.
pappyo 10y ago
> But no one seems to want them, and the reasons have nothing to do with low pay, poor benefits, or a lack of available training. This is laughable. The average plumber makes around $50,000 and will top out around $80,000[0]. And those wadges have flat lined over the last 15 years[1]. Not to mention, it's painful work climbing under cabinets, kneeling down and standing up with heavy work belts, and contorting your body into every little nook and cranny. It takes its toll on your body over a period of time, as does the vast majority of manual labor jobs that are out there. So why would the son or daughter of a plumber go into the work when (s)he sees her dad complain about how the industry has gone to hell? I guess this is confusing to Mike Rowe. Let's imagine for a minute that an entry level plumber could make $250,000 a year after a year long apprenticeship that paid him/her $60,000. There would be zero problems filling these position with top notched candidates. Zero. So to say pay and benefits are not the problem, misdiagnoses skills gap. [0] http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472152.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472152.htm [1] http://city-salaries.careertrends.com/l/116610/Plumbers-Pipefitters-and-Steamfitters-in-Providence-Fall-River-Warwick-Rhode-Island http://city-salaries.careertrends.com/l/116610/Plumbers-Pipe...
- omegaham 10y ago
  This. And it'll be addressed naturally once plumbers retire. The existence of fewer plumbers means that their prices will go up, which will attract more people into the trade. The fact that there is a "shortage" of plumbers means that the pay isn't high enough for ambitious people to drop what they're doing and get into plumbing.
  - pappyo 10y ago
    Right, and I think you've pointed out the real problem...impending inflation.
- csdreamer7 10y ago
  According to this site an apprentice plumber's pay starts at 13k-25k. http://www.eplumbingcourses.com/plumber-salary/ http://www.eplumbingcourses.com/plumber-salary/
- 10y ago
anjc 10y ago
How can somebody who's clearly interested in building trades be so unaware of the dynamics of the industry and training, and the effect that the recession had on it...past a headline unemployment figure.
speeder 10y ago
I am from Brazil, so maybe this doesn't apply to the US... But I am seeing a major problem with pay. For example, I never got a legal job (as in, registered employee of a company following Brazil's laws correctly) since graduating in 2009, this is expected during the heavy economy depression periods, but during the "boom" of 7% of GDP growth, I actually was invited to some interviews, and had to refuse to even attempt them, despite being "good jobs" The reason, is that many of the jobs that were offered, the pay was lower than my student loan repayments, I just couldn't accept those jobs. Back then, I went with higher paying stuff, that weren't exactly legal job. (for example being an de-facto employee, but getting paid as if I was freelancer, in Brazil this is illegal). Then, when the economy tanked again recently, I decided to outright not work in many situations, because most of the work available were in places with cost of living so high, that I would literally lose money, I would have to pay to work (for example: not working at my parents house, would make my debt increase by "x" every month, while working in São Paulo, would make my debt increase by "3x" every month, despite now having a source of income). For example I see lots of people claiming that the population is lazy, because they don't want to be cashiers or street sweepers... Since I desperately need money, I would accept those jobs, if they actually gave profit! Right now the pay is so low, that my costs regarding transportation, food (instead of eating the stuff I grow on my yard and cook myself) and health (for example sitting the entire day as cashier is very unhealthy overall) would be higher than the tiny salary that those jobs pay. And then there is the "time loss", when even when the job is actually profitable, the time you lose doing it is too much compared to the benefits, for example currently most young people don't start families, here in Brazil birth rates are already below replacement rate, specially if you ignore immigrants (then birth rate is close to the one of a developed country), so usually people need money only to themselves, not their family, so suppose a guy can do some oddjobs and save 500 USD per month, and use most of his time having fun, training, taking care of his mental and physical health, and so on... or he can work 60 hours/week, and after all his costs, save 1000 USD per month... would those extra 500 USD be worth 60 hours/week when he doesn't have mouths to feed? I think that probably not.
gravypod 10y ago
I really wish trade schools weren't dying in America. They're ab affordable way for real people to earn a good living without as huge an investment. I wish more fields were taught in trade schools rather then colleges. Ex: software engineering, writing, art, some other engineerings. Things that are t centered around academia, in my opinion, should be considered trades. If they where we'd all be saving a lot of time and money.
- kbredemeier 10y ago
  I agree with you. I went to college and graduated with a degree, but didn't really have enough real world experience to know what I wanted to do as a career. Skip ahead five years and I finally found a similar equivalent to a software engineering trade school, Holberton School[1] in SF. I didn't have the money to go back to school and didn't want to take out loans, and this school was my saving grace. I do wish things like this existed for other vocations as well though. [1] https://www.holbertonschool.com https://www.holbertonschool.com
Annatar 10y ago
Nice try, but the average pay for a tradesman is $15 - $45 per hour on the upper range. People cannot live decently with $45 per hour, let alone with $15 per hour, which is why many now juggle two or even three jobs, just trying to survive. Hence the term working poor.
- aianus 10y ago
  > People cannot live decently with $45 per hour That's $90k a year, putting you in the top ~0.1% of the world's population by income.
  - Annatar 10y ago
    0.1% doesn't help you much when you have to contend with Swiss-like prices on an American salary.
nlawalker 10y ago
The only argument that Rowe makes for the desirability of skilled-trade jobs, at least in this piece, is the job security they offer: >> As long as Americans remain addicted to affordable electricity, smooth roads, indoor plumbing and climate control, the opportunities in the skilled trades will never go away. They’ll never be outsourced. Of course "a whole category of good jobs have been relegated to some sort of 'vocational consolation prize'" - they're good jobs, not the best jobs. They don't pay the best, they don't offer the best working conditions, and they don't signal the highest levels of social prestige. That's simply a function of the other possible career choices that exist. Ambitious people aspire to the best. Parents want their kids to have the best. The biggest problem I see is that society and the increasingly winner-take-all economy make it easy (and often economically rational) to feel like anything but the best is a failure.
- acchow 10y ago
  > The biggest problem I see is that society and the increasingly winner-take-all economy make it easy (and often economically rational) to feel like anything but the best is a failure. Even if the economy isn't "winner take all", mating generally is. And that's a completely different issue.

84 points by apsec112 10y ago

CM30 10y ago

Or in other words, the US (and likely a lot of other places) need more plumbers and electricians, but fewer people seem to want to apply for these types of jobs because they're not seen as 'trendy'. Which isn't surprising, given how white collar work in a startup or internet focused company seems to have almost become a default assumption in the last few years or so.

martinko 10y ago
Goes hand in hand with the oversubscribed university system.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  Yeah, but not all subjects are the same. If we had too many engineers.. Well, that wouldn't be a problem, if it's even possible...
  - mac01021 10y ago
    It would be a problem for many of those engineers, if they were unable to find, on their own, commercially viable applications for their skills.
    - newjersey 10y ago
      I agree. It is possible to have too many engineers. People are complaining that there are too many lawyers, for instance. There is no reason it can't happen to us.
      - Chris2048 10y ago
        I'm not sure, and engineering degree is very flexible. A friend of mine got a job straight out of university, and in the following years did biological, civil and automotive engineering. Lawyering, in contrast, I believe is fairly specialised - in that it's not as easy to move around between different areas of law? Aslo, people will always complain there are too many lawyers, the economics of law aren't properly market-lead..
        mac01021 10y ago
        > and in the following years did biological, civil and automotive engineering. I would guess that most of what those fields have in common are their quantitative/mathematical nature. Would he have been just as fit for these roles with a degree in Math or Physics?
        Chris2048 10y ago
        I think in all three he used the same kind of software and structural/materials know-how; solid-works or something. I think a math/physics degree might not have the particulars of structural design specifically.
        speeder 10y ago
        My dad is civil engineer. He stopped working with engineering about 15 years ago, because there was too many engineers, the pay was too low to be worth the effort and risk. He recently resumed working with engineering, and unfortunately remembered why he had left in first place, he worked in a couple projects, and most of them had engineers getting pay less than senior construction workers, and companies frequently believed that hiring an engineer was just out of necessity because the law says so, and otherwise would build whatever they want without one. This does had some very, very bad effects, like when an engineer-less construction company thought it was good idea to just demolish some pillars that were in the way of what they wanted to build, and managed to demolish two buildings and damage a third. (this happened in Rio de Janeiro... the person that asked to take down the pillars was the secretary, that looked at the project and concluded that by taking down the pillars they could fit more desks in the office they were furbishing...)
      - wott 10y ago
        That's a different concern: a single lawyer is one lawyer too many.
  - jackcosgrove 10y ago
    Of course it's possible. If everyone becomes an engineer, that just means the median engineer is less impressive. Can there be too many people with 130+ IQs? Not sure about that. Right now engineering degrees are valuable as intelligence proxies because the standards are less relaxed than other degrees. If everyone became an engineer this would no longer be the case.

douche 10y ago

If I were a young man, and I was not in the top quartile, or really, top decile, of my high school class, I would be looking real hard at getting into a good trade, rather than going to college. There's nice money in being an electrician, a plumber, a welder, a mechanic. It's relatively low stress, and you leave your work behind when you punch out. Much better than putting yourself massively into debt to try to get a degree of increasing uselessness, particularly if you don't have the grades or the brains to get into and be able to hack a good school and a tough program. I've known too many people that really weren't ready or equipped to go to college, but got pushed along by guidance counselors and the "Everybody goes to college" rhetoric, and the only result was them racking up tens of thousands in debt and dropping out after a semester or two. The other traditional option for those that aren't really cut out for higher education is the military, but they are starting to tighten up again, as I understand from my friends that are still in.

lucidguppy 10y ago
Really needs to be a business certificate that dovetails with a trade - so you can manage your business while you work your trade. Your body can wear out pretty fast with hard labor so you need to start your own business at some point.
- epalmer 10y ago
  This is a great idea. I don't think community colleges can do this, at least today. Having a focused night time set of classes in practical methods of running a business would be required. Edit: typo
- jschwartzi 10y ago
  Most skilled trades are not hard labor. If you're a plumber, you might only bust rocks or dig ditches 10% of the time. And it also depends on what you specialize in. The guy that replaces your toilet and your busted water lines might know how to build a septic system, but he probably hasn't done it in a while. Honestly I'd be really tempted to get out of software and go into a trade. It'd be a lot less work.

rollthehard6 10y ago

I don't know about the US, but here in the UK, if you are in say, your 40s/50s and out of work, good luck trying to get yourself a trade - apprenticeships are still the province of the young and the government won't help retrain you either. This to me is as big a problem with respect to vocational training as encouraging all school leavers to go to university to get a degree. As people live longer we can't continue to ignore those who would retrain into a trade.

Chris2048 10y ago
Wouldn't it be assumed that someone in their 30/40s would have savings to retrain? When I went to uni, there were a few mature students.
- yardie 10y ago
  If you're unemployed and looking to retrain then what savings? You've probably used up most of it while looking for work in a field that was quickly shrinking.
- anjc 10y ago
  > Wouldn't it be assumed that someone in their 30/40s would have savings to retrain Maybe 50 years ago? Not for the last 20 years at least. The average 30/40 year old is in debt, nevermind having savings.
- Avshalom 10y ago
  Lets say I've been making 50k a year since I was 20. I put 5k a year into a retirement account (IRA/401k/$country's equivalent) and another 5k into just a regular saving account to keep it liquid for a rainy day. After taxes and what not that means I'm probably living on 20k a year. I lose my job at 35. I now have 75k in liquid savings. I spend the first 6 months looking for a job, now I'm down to 65k, I decide to retrain. That's 10-20K and 12-24 months if I go to Community College. So I'm dead broke by the end. If I have to buy a car, or break an ankle I'll never make it. So I get a part time job in retail making 10-12k a year before taxes just to help defray the cost and to keep the unemployment gap on my resume smaller. Great I make it through. Except now I'm 37 looking for a job in a field that I have no previous work experience in. So I keep my retail job and try to squeeze enough hours out of it keep everything together, or I get a second job. Now I'm a constantly stressed and exhausted 37 year old paranoid about taking a day off to interview because what if they cut my hours in retaliation for missing a shift who is looking for a job in a field that I have no previous work experience in.

sexbucket 10y ago

> Democrats blamed corporate greed. “Just offer workers more money,” they said, “and the skills gap will close itself.” No seriously. Offer more fucking money.

mac01021 10y ago
Why? They've already decided how badly they want to attract talent and set their salary budgets accordingly. You're asking them to pay more than is good for their businesses?
- quantumhobbit 10y ago
  If their business can't afford market wages, then it was never a viable business in the first place. Market wages are what they are because some other viable business can afford to pay them. Failing businesses don't get to pay less on utilities, why should they get to pay less on wages?
- pjc50 10y ago
  If I set my phone budget at a dollar, I don't write articles in newspapers complaining that I can't buy an iPhone.
  - mac01021 10y ago
    If you can justify setting your phone budget at a dollar, then your life is structured in such a way that any phone would deliver at most one dollar's worth of value to you and, in this respect, you are highly unusual. If, on the other hand, there are 100,000 companies who all think that adding a insert-your-favorite-kind-of-specialist-here will enable their company to generate $X additional revenue per year, where X is an above-average income that many people would love to earn, but they can't find anyone to do the job for $X, it makes sense to broadcast throughout society the message that this kind of special skill may be worth obtaining.
    - brassic 10y ago

Zelmor 10y ago

Here's the perfect article for IT folks being burned out and looking for a career change.

icantdrive55 10y ago

O.k. I've heard enough of this skills gap from Mike Rowe. I haven't figured out if he's "thick" pretty boy who honestly doesn't understand why a company in the middle of nowhere is having a hard time finding a non-union pipe welder, who's willing to even pay union wages, for a two month job; or Mike is just trying to promote himself as some Skilled Workers Guru so he won't have to work for non-union wages when this money making gig dies out? 1. If you pay a decent salary you will have a line around your union hall with applicants. For example, try to get into local 6 in San Francisco. It's the electric union for the city/county. I believe those guys are getting over $100 hr. including benefits. Most of you will just not get in. 2. Try to be become a union Plumber in New York. There were guys camping out in line just to put their name on the list to take the union test a few weeks ago. 3. I have two extreme examples, but every union that treats its members right; there's no shortage of eager apprentices. O.k. how about the rest of the trades? Where are the workers? Let's look at Mr. Sparky, and Benjamin Franklin brought up as expamples in this piece. Both mainly hire non-union help. Mr. Sparky pays $14.00 hr, and I believe they expect state licensed electricians to apply? They offer lousy working conditions. No wonder they can't get qualified workers? They do charge customers union prices though. Someone has to make a good living? We don't have a shortage of qualified individuals. We have employers/companies that don't pay much more than retail. (I won't be back to argue. I a licenced general contractor, union electrician, and went to automotive school. What I see is a lot of overqualified guys, but are being exploited. I see a lot of foreigners doing these jobs at very low wages. In many cases, they do a good job with the right supervision. So, I'm a hypothetical shop owner. I hire a guy who knows what's he/she is doing, and pay that person just o.k.; and they delegate to a bunch of low wage foreigners. This is how you get rich as an owner in the trades. And you don't hire union if you can avoid it. And you don't hire union help. The point is not hiring union. Did you get it? See your company seems to make more profit without unions? And you have guys like Mike scratching their heads over the lack of eager beavers lining up to fill these jobs.)

arcosdev 10y ago
This is the only valid reply to this false and misleading diatribe from Mike Rowe or any of the twits who keep crying about the "skills gap". Why would I break my back and use my expertise for the same amount of money you pay an employee at McDonald's (I am going by Canadian minimum wage)?

0xmohit 10y ago

The hostname in the URL, i.e. mikerowe.com, led me to wonder if it is the same guy as mikerowesoft.com [0]. Apparently, not. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft

leereeves 10y ago
No, this Mike Rowe is an actor turned blue collar hero as host of Dirty Jobs.

JohnnyConatus 10y ago

As a business owner, I can tell you that were will never be a day when business owners won't tell you there is shortage of qualified people at the price they want to pay. At a minimum this is due to losing touch with the increasing cost of living and at it's extreme it's just pure greed. I remember the same articles even during the last two recessions.

pappyo 10y ago

> But no one seems to want them, and the reasons have nothing to do with low pay, poor benefits, or a lack of available training. This is laughable. The average plumber makes around $50,000 and will top out around $80,000[0]. And those wadges have flat lined over the last 15 years[1]. Not to mention, it's painful work climbing under cabinets, kneeling down and standing up with heavy work belts, and contorting your body into every little nook and cranny. It takes its toll on your body over a period of time, as does the vast majority of manual labor jobs that are out there. So why would the son or daughter of a plumber go into the work when (s)he sees her dad complain about how the industry has gone to hell? I guess this is confusing to Mike Rowe. Let's imagine for a minute that an entry level plumber could make $250,000 a year after a year long apprenticeship that paid him/her $60,000. There would be zero problems filling these position with top notched candidates. Zero. So to say pay and benefits are not the problem, misdiagnoses skills gap. [0] http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472152.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472152.htm [1] http://city-salaries.careertrends.com/l/116610/Plumbers-Pipefitters-and-Steamfitters-in-Providence-Fall-River-Warwick-Rhode-Island http://city-salaries.careertrends.com/l/116610/Plumbers-Pipe...

omegaham 10y ago
This. And it'll be addressed naturally once plumbers retire. The existence of fewer plumbers means that their prices will go up, which will attract more people into the trade. The fact that there is a "shortage" of plumbers means that the pay isn't high enough for ambitious people to drop what they're doing and get into plumbing.
- pappyo 10y ago
  Right, and I think you've pointed out the real problem...impending inflation.
csdreamer7 10y ago
According to this site an apprentice plumber's pay starts at 13k-25k. http://www.eplumbingcourses.com/plumber-salary/ http://www.eplumbingcourses.com/plumber-salary/
10y ago

anjc 10y ago

How can somebody who's clearly interested in building trades be so unaware of the dynamics of the industry and training, and the effect that the recession had on it...past a headline unemployment figure.

speeder 10y ago

I am from Brazil, so maybe this doesn't apply to the US... But I am seeing a major problem with pay. For example, I never got a legal job (as in, registered employee of a company following Brazil's laws correctly) since graduating in 2009, this is expected during the heavy economy depression periods, but during the "boom" of 7% of GDP growth, I actually was invited to some interviews, and had to refuse to even attempt them, despite being "good jobs" The reason, is that many of the jobs that were offered, the pay was lower than my student loan repayments, I just couldn't accept those jobs. Back then, I went with higher paying stuff, that weren't exactly legal job. (for example being an de-facto employee, but getting paid as if I was freelancer, in Brazil this is illegal). Then, when the economy tanked again recently, I decided to outright not work in many situations, because most of the work available were in places with cost of living so high, that I would literally lose money, I would have to pay to work (for example: not working at my parents house, would make my debt increase by "x" every month, while working in São Paulo, would make my debt increase by "3x" every month, despite now having a source of income). For example I see lots of people claiming that the population is lazy, because they don't want to be cashiers or street sweepers... Since I desperately need money, I would accept those jobs, if they actually gave profit! Right now the pay is so low, that my costs regarding transportation, food (instead of eating the stuff I grow on my yard and cook myself) and health (for example sitting the entire day as cashier is very unhealthy overall) would be higher than the tiny salary that those jobs pay. And then there is the "time loss", when even when the job is actually profitable, the time you lose doing it is too much compared to the benefits, for example currently most young people don't start families, here in Brazil birth rates are already below replacement rate, specially if you ignore immigrants (then birth rate is close to the one of a developed country), so usually people need money only to themselves, not their family, so suppose a guy can do some oddjobs and save 500 USD per month, and use most of his time having fun, training, taking care of his mental and physical health, and so on... or he can work 60 hours/week, and after all his costs, save 1000 USD per month... would those extra 500 USD be worth 60 hours/week when he doesn't have mouths to feed? I think that probably not.

gravypod 10y ago

I really wish trade schools weren't dying in America. They're ab affordable way for real people to earn a good living without as huge an investment. I wish more fields were taught in trade schools rather then colleges. Ex: software engineering, writing, art, some other engineerings. Things that are t centered around academia, in my opinion, should be considered trades. If they where we'd all be saving a lot of time and money.

kbredemeier 10y ago
I agree with you. I went to college and graduated with a degree, but didn't really have enough real world experience to know what I wanted to do as a career. Skip ahead five years and I finally found a similar equivalent to a software engineering trade school, Holberton School[1] in SF. I didn't have the money to go back to school and didn't want to take out loans, and this school was my saving grace. I do wish things like this existed for other vocations as well though. [1] https://www.holbertonschool.com https://www.holbertonschool.com

Annatar 10y ago

Nice try, but the average pay for a tradesman is $15 - $45 per hour on the upper range. People cannot live decently with $45 per hour, let alone with $15 per hour, which is why many now juggle two or even three jobs, just trying to survive. Hence the term working poor.

aianus 10y ago
> People cannot live decently with $45 per hour That's $90k a year, putting you in the top ~0.1% of the world's population by income.
- Annatar 10y ago
  0.1% doesn't help you much when you have to contend with Swiss-like prices on an American salary.

nlawalker 10y ago

The only argument that Rowe makes for the desirability of skilled-trade jobs, at least in this piece, is the job security they offer: >> As long as Americans remain addicted to affordable electricity, smooth roads, indoor plumbing and climate control, the opportunities in the skilled trades will never go away. They’ll never be outsourced. Of course "a whole category of good jobs have been relegated to some sort of 'vocational consolation prize'" - they're good jobs, not the best jobs. They don't pay the best, they don't offer the best working conditions, and they don't signal the highest levels of social prestige. That's simply a function of the other possible career choices that exist. Ambitious people aspire to the best. Parents want their kids to have the best. The biggest problem I see is that society and the increasingly winner-take-all economy make it easy (and often economically rational) to feel like anything but the best is a failure.

acchow 10y ago
> The biggest problem I see is that society and the increasingly winner-take-all economy make it easy (and often economically rational) to feel like anything but the best is a failure. Even if the economy isn't "winner take all", mating generally is. And that's a completely different issue.