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The OED has citations for singular they predating modern English.[1] If you look, I think you'll find that many of the English "rules" floated today date back o

The OED has citations for singular they predating modern English.[1] If you look, I think you'll find that many of the English "rules" floated today date back only a century or two, and were ignored by great writers even then. 1. http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200700 http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/200700 Pastebin link for non-subscribers: http://pastebin.com/kZFpdTnV http://pastebin.com/kZFpdTnV

paulddraper 10y ago
I don't doubt it was used at some time or another. Ancient texts are filled with grammar errors, even judged by the proper grammar of the time. "He" has been the _proper_ usage way back from its roots at the German "er", which has the same usage. "Man" or "one" (German, "Mann" or "man") has been used in the indefinate case. http://english.stackexchange.com/q/30455/69352 http://english.stackexchange.com/q/30455/69352
- rspeer 10y ago
  Your StackExchange link is not the most conclusive thing: you have people answering that you can still get away with saying "he", or possibly "he or she", and you also have people correctly pointing out that almost all English speakers use "they". We are not talking about grammatical errors here. You're free to declare great speakers and writers through the centuries to be in error, but what are you even claiming at that point? You could declare that saying the word "bread" is a mistake and it would be just as meaningless. As with most arguments against the singular "they", your argument from German etymology also precludes the singular "you". Do you say "thou" all the time?
  - paulddraper 10y ago
    I believe the link proves my point: "he" is the formal/traditional use, but people are changing that for PC reasons. > Do you say "thou" all the time? "You" was not only the plural second-person but also the formal singular second-person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction#English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction#Englis...) -- similar to German "sie" and "Sie". So it was always correct. Anyway, I'm sure the PC crowd will win. It's just an (in this case, innocuous) example how systemically they can change they way we speak and communicate.
    - rspeer 10y ago
      So this is a different change than the one you were originally talking about, when you made the incorrect claim that 'For centuries, "they" has been plural and "he" has been used for gender-neutral singular third-person.' It sounded like you were proscribing the singular "they". There's no change in whether the singular "they" is a gender-neutral singular third-person pronoun, only the generic "he". The singular "they" has existed throughout modern English. Getting rid of it is an insurmountably awkward and drastic change. People have tried, and they can't even remove it from their own speech. The generic "he" is a relatively newer affectation that has risen and fallen in popularity in formal writing. I guess you can find a "PC crowd" to blame for its current decline, but this decline supposedly started around the 1960s, so you're not really observing anything new. The only thing that's recent is (as EdiX pointed out) that there are people speaking out to say that they, as individuals, would prefer to be referred to with the singular "they".
      - paulddraper 10y ago
        To make an analogy, "y'all" (or "ye aw") has likewise been in use for hundreds of years. No argument there. But both "y'all" and singular "they" usage has always been informal, and inappropriate/ungrammatical for more proper contexts, which should instead have the more formal, traditional equivalents. > ...it has become common in speech and in informal writing to substitute the third-person plural pronouns they, them, their, and themselves, and the nonstandard singular themself. While this usage is accepted in casual context, it is still considered ungrammatical in formal writing. - Chicago Manual of Style, 16th edition

paulddraper 10y ago

I don't doubt it was used at some time or another. Ancient texts are filled with grammar errors, even judged by the proper grammar of the time. "He" has been the _proper_ usage way back from its roots at the German "er", which has the same usage. "Man" or "one" (German, "Mann" or "man") has been used in the indefinate case. http://english.stackexchange.com/q/30455/69352 http://english.stackexchange.com/q/30455/69352

rspeer 10y ago
Your StackExchange link is not the most conclusive thing: you have people answering that you can still get away with saying "he", or possibly "he or she", and you also have people correctly pointing out that almost all English speakers use "they". We are not talking about grammatical errors here. You're free to declare great speakers and writers through the centuries to be in error, but what are you even claiming at that point? You could declare that saying the word "bread" is a mistake and it would be just as meaningless. As with most arguments against the singular "they", your argument from German etymology also precludes the singular "you". Do you say "thou" all the time?
- paulddraper 10y ago
  I believe the link proves my point: "he" is the formal/traditional use, but people are changing that for PC reasons. > Do you say "thou" all the time? "You" was not only the plural second-person but also the formal singular second-person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction#English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction#Englis...) -- similar to German "sie" and "Sie". So it was always correct. Anyway, I'm sure the PC crowd will win. It's just an (in this case, innocuous) example how systemically they can change they way we speak and communicate.
  - rspeer 10y ago
    So this is a different change than the one you were originally talking about, when you made the incorrect claim that 'For centuries, "they" has been plural and "he" has been used for gender-neutral singular third-person.' It sounded like you were proscribing the singular "they". There's no change in whether the singular "they" is a gender-neutral singular third-person pronoun, only the generic "he". The singular "they" has existed throughout modern English. Getting rid of it is an insurmountably awkward and drastic change. People have tried, and they can't even remove it from their own speech. The generic "he" is a relatively newer affectation that has risen and fallen in popularity in formal writing. I guess you can find a "PC crowd" to blame for its current decline, but this decline supposedly started around the 1960s, so you're not really observing anything new. The only thing that's recent is (as EdiX pointed out) that there are people speaking out to say that they, as individuals, would prefer to be referred to with the singular "they".
    - paulddraper 10y ago
      To make an analogy, "y'all" (or "ye aw") has likewise been in use for hundreds of years. No argument there. But both "y'all" and singular "they" usage has always been informal, and inappropriate/ungrammatical for more proper contexts, which should instead have the more formal, traditional equivalents. > ...it has become common in speech and in informal writing to substitute the third-person plural pronouns they, them, their, and themselves, and the nonstandard singular themself. While this usage is accepted in casual context, it is still considered ungrammatical in formal writing. - Chicago Manual of Style, 16th edition