6 ms·

"Rapist"? Has Applebaum been charged or formally accused of any crime? Is there any concrete reason we ought to believe the allegations against him?

sneak 10y ago
Depends on how you define "formally accused". Multiple women have come forward stating that he raped them. I'm not sure why you are asking about charges; many people who commit crimes are never charged and correspondingly many who are charged are innocent.
- 1ris 10y ago
  There where several accusations. None of them was brought to the police, and at least one of them, a major, if not the major accusation turned out to be false. Another accusation (or more?) have been questioned by witnesses. I'm willing to believe he's a jerk anytime, but most accusations have absolutely no credibility for me. Especially because no victim went to the police. And if people don't do that I don't believe they are interested in a investigation. And, no, the german police is not a hell hole where no rape vicitm could go to. Quite the opposite. The whole thing is a huge mess. But unless you have very good reasons to do so don't call applebaum a rapist. (AFAIK neither does the tor inc investigation do this) No, you don't have to like him. I don't do either.
  - sneak 10y ago
    Requiring victims to jump through additional hoops simply because they were victimized before you will believe them as victims is bad form.
    - strictnein 10y ago
      You raped me. No other proof is necessary. Please quit your job and report to prison.
      - sneak 10y ago
        After your compelling demonstration, I have now come around to your point of view.
    - 1ris 10y ago
      Stop trolling. Crimes deserve investigations. This is in the best interest of the victim. And no, I'm not believing anything just because somebody told so. Everything else is patological naivety, expeciall if the source has a bad track record.
- GunlogAlm 10y ago
  Are we to accept all allegations levelled against others as unimpeachable truth by default? If so, what legitimate means do the accused have to clear their names? You are calling a man a "rapist" solely on the basis of allegations. Presume innocence.
  - Certhas 10y ago
    No we shouldn't, but has he charged the women who have come forward with slander? If not why not? Should we believe his denials? Shouldn't we presume the women to be innocent of slander? Presumption of innocence is a red herring. It's a legal principle, not an ethical principle. In real, messy situations without sufficient evidence or will to overcome the "legal" presumption of innocence, we are forced to make heuristic decisions (and inaction/ignoring the allegations is such a decision). THe decision can be more than black and white, too. For example that Applebaum is not rapist, and maybe hasn't done anything outright illegal, but has probably exhibited ethically questionable behaviour that would more than sufficient grounds for not wanting him associated with your project. For a thorough overview that I found persuasive: http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-sexual-abuse-allegations http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-sexua... People in the movement describe him as someone who likes to experiment with sex. As one who usually gets what he wants. "I’ve also seen him be inconsiderate of other people’s feelings," said one person who knows him well, "or be overly persistent about asking for permission to do things other people didn’t want to do." But, he added, Mr. Appelbaum asks for permission. === As an aside: Presumption of innocence is not how society works. Say a friend tells you that a particular plumber in your village cheated him out of some money, so you should avoid that plumber, would you disregard the advice because your friend didn't secure a conviction against the plumber? If you're hiring and a trusted friend tells you that XYZ was harassing women at his last job, nothing outright illegal, but definitely toxic atmosphere, would you disregard that advice because of a presumption of innocence? So the real question isn't presumption of innocence, but the trustworthiness of (sometimes anonymous) sources. That's a hard judgement call to make. People who parade "presumption of innocence" around instead of thinking about that judgement call essentially advocate never trusting any allegations of improper behaviour. Tellingly I have seen that fallacy used overwhelmingly when it comes to sexual misbehaviour. Calling it victim blaming misses the point as well of course, because that presumes that the accuser is a victim. Anyone have a good term for that?
- mickronome 10y ago
  Formally accused is a reasonably well defined concept. It is when accusations are brought before a ruling body with jurisdiction to receive the accusations in question. Usually before a government body of some sort, most commonly the police.
- syshum 10y ago
  if I understand the situation correct only 1 person has accusation of rape, The rest of the accusations are unwanted sexual advancements, with at-least one of them having been refuted by the actual "victim" as the report was from a 3rd party to misrepresented the situation. Here is a good Multi-part series that is worth a read through https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-pt1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/ https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-pt1-the-c...
CyberDildonics 10y ago
I think you mean formally charged
- GunlogAlm 10y ago
  No, I mean formally accused. See mickronome's comment below.

sneak 10y ago

Depends on how you define "formally accused". Multiple women have come forward stating that he raped them. I'm not sure why you are asking about charges; many people who commit crimes are never charged and correspondingly many who are charged are innocent.

1ris 10y ago
There where several accusations. None of them was brought to the police, and at least one of them, a major, if not the major accusation turned out to be false. Another accusation (or more?) have been questioned by witnesses. I'm willing to believe he's a jerk anytime, but most accusations have absolutely no credibility for me. Especially because no victim went to the police. And if people don't do that I don't believe they are interested in a investigation. And, no, the german police is not a hell hole where no rape vicitm could go to. Quite the opposite. The whole thing is a huge mess. But unless you have very good reasons to do so don't call applebaum a rapist. (AFAIK neither does the tor inc investigation do this) No, you don't have to like him. I don't do either.
- sneak 10y ago
  Requiring victims to jump through additional hoops simply because they were victimized before you will believe them as victims is bad form.
  - strictnein 10y ago
    You raped me. No other proof is necessary. Please quit your job and report to prison.
    - sneak 10y ago
      After your compelling demonstration, I have now come around to your point of view.
  - 1ris 10y ago
    Stop trolling. Crimes deserve investigations. This is in the best interest of the victim. And no, I'm not believing anything just because somebody told so. Everything else is patological naivety, expeciall if the source has a bad track record.
GunlogAlm 10y ago
Are we to accept all allegations levelled against others as unimpeachable truth by default? If so, what legitimate means do the accused have to clear their names? You are calling a man a "rapist" solely on the basis of allegations. Presume innocence.
- Certhas 10y ago
  No we shouldn't, but has he charged the women who have come forward with slander? If not why not? Should we believe his denials? Shouldn't we presume the women to be innocent of slander? Presumption of innocence is a red herring. It's a legal principle, not an ethical principle. In real, messy situations without sufficient evidence or will to overcome the "legal" presumption of innocence, we are forced to make heuristic decisions (and inaction/ignoring the allegations is such a decision). THe decision can be more than black and white, too. For example that Applebaum is not rapist, and maybe hasn't done anything outright illegal, but has probably exhibited ethically questionable behaviour that would more than sufficient grounds for not wanting him associated with your project. For a thorough overview that I found persuasive: http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-sexual-abuse-allegations http://www.zeit.de/kultur/2016-08/jacob-appelbaum-rape-sexua... People in the movement describe him as someone who likes to experiment with sex. As one who usually gets what he wants. "I’ve also seen him be inconsiderate of other people’s feelings," said one person who knows him well, "or be overly persistent about asking for permission to do things other people didn’t want to do." But, he added, Mr. Appelbaum asks for permission. === As an aside: Presumption of innocence is not how society works. Say a friend tells you that a particular plumber in your village cheated him out of some money, so you should avoid that plumber, would you disregard the advice because your friend didn't secure a conviction against the plumber? If you're hiring and a trusted friend tells you that XYZ was harassing women at his last job, nothing outright illegal, but definitely toxic atmosphere, would you disregard that advice because of a presumption of innocence? So the real question isn't presumption of innocence, but the trustworthiness of (sometimes anonymous) sources. That's a hard judgement call to make. People who parade "presumption of innocence" around instead of thinking about that judgement call essentially advocate never trusting any allegations of improper behaviour. Tellingly I have seen that fallacy used overwhelmingly when it comes to sexual misbehaviour. Calling it victim blaming misses the point as well of course, because that presumes that the accuser is a victim. Anyone have a good term for that?
mickronome 10y ago
Formally accused is a reasonably well defined concept. It is when accusations are brought before a ruling body with jurisdiction to receive the accusations in question. Usually before a government body of some sort, most commonly the police.
syshum 10y ago
if I understand the situation correct only 1 person has accusation of rape, The rest of the accusations are unwanted sexual advancements, with at-least one of them having been refuted by the actual "victim" as the report was from a 3rd party to misrepresented the situation. Here is a good Multi-part series that is worth a read through https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-pt1-the-crucifixion-of-ioerror/ https://contraspin.co.nz/the-weaponising-of-social-pt1-the-c...

CyberDildonics 10y ago

I think you mean formally charged

GunlogAlm 10y ago
No, I mean formally accused. See mickronome's comment below.