4 ms·

It seems like those calling for removing speakers are often trying to set identity contingencies. That is, a rule like, "if you are Douglas Crockford, then you

by closed 10y ago

It seems like those calling for removing speakers are often trying to set identity contingencies. That is, a rule like, "if you are Douglas Crockford, then you can't speak at a conference". However, like identity contingencies against people based on gender, race, etc.. this kind of rule is disappointing because it assumes there is something inherently limited or bad about being Douglas Crockford. What seems better to me would be asking for an explicit behavioral contingency on being a conference speaker. For example, "if you are going to make sexist remarks, then you cannot speak at the conference". This makes clear that if you think Douglas Crockford is not fundamentally broken as a human, but could learn and become better at following the contingencies set by the conference, then he is fine to speak. It also opens room to work with Crockford to create a plan for him to speak at the conference, such as going over his speech beforehand, or sitting down with him afterward to discuss ways in which he may have violated the conference's standards. He can't stop being Douglas Crockford, but I don't think that means he can't stop producing behaviors conference organizers find offensive or harmful (if he wants to). P.s. check out the book Whistling Vivaldi for an interesting introduction to some potentially harmful (or beneficial) effects of identity contingencies.

stephenr 10y ago
That concept won't work for these people. Making rules like "don't be sexist" means that to prevent someone coming, you have to show that the person was in fact being sexist. The homepage for Nodevember has a big "code of conduct" section. No idea if it's new or not, but one bit is: > Do not insult or put down other attendees. Insult is taken, not given. You can't decide what insults me, the same as I can't decide what insults you. By that token, anyone can claim that anything anyone says is insulting to them. I find plenty of common nodejs community 'norms' to be insulting to my eyes to read, never mind to my brain having to deal with the mental shenanigans required to try to make sense of the decisions made. Does that mean I have the ability to say "NPM's dependency management is so poor quality it's insulting" and have any talk about NPM banned?
- closed 10y ago
  > Insult is taken, not given. You can't decide what insults me, the same as I can't decide what insults you. By that token, anyone can claim that anything anyone says is insulting to them. Agreed, and because the conference organizers wield the power to decide who speaks (or to implement deciding in some fashion), they can choose how the insult they're referring to is measured and responded to. For example, it could be by committee, etc.. I'm disappointed if, regardless of their belief on what constitutes insulting behavior, they didn't put forth at least some effort to see if Crockford could meet their standards. > Does that mean I have the ability to say "NPM's dependency management is so poor quality it's insulting" and have any talk about NPM banned? You can say that, and organize a conference that bans talk about NPM. As long as your were upfront about it, I'd be fine with it--just sounds like the trappings of a bad conference. If you invited a speaker, only to realize that they were planning to talk about NPM (say you hadn't made your contingency clear), then hopefully you would check if they would drop talk about NPM. If you found out that someone had talked about NPM at a previous conference, and so removed them from your conference without doing the above, I would be disappointed in you, too ;). > Making rules like "don't be sexist" means that to prevent someone coming, you have to show that the person was in fact being sexist. I'm not sure if you're saying that, to you, nothing in his behavior appears sexist. I was trying to think of the issue of what to do after / assuming they believed he had acted inappropriately in the past.
skafjvhs 10y ago
You're asking these activists to practice mercy. That's a big ask for someone who is learning what power feels like.
- sjwright 10y ago
  Quote of the day.

by closed 10y ago

stephenr 10y ago

That concept won't work for these people. Making rules like "don't be sexist" means that to prevent someone coming, you have to show that the person was in fact being sexist. The homepage for Nodevember has a big "code of conduct" section. No idea if it's new or not, but one bit is: > Do not insult or put down other attendees. Insult is taken, not given. You can't decide what insults me, the same as I can't decide what insults you. By that token, anyone can claim that anything anyone says is insulting to them. I find plenty of common nodejs community 'norms' to be insulting to my eyes to read, never mind to my brain having to deal with the mental shenanigans required to try to make sense of the decisions made. Does that mean I have the ability to say "NPM's dependency management is so poor quality it's insulting" and have any talk about NPM banned?

closed 10y ago
> Insult is taken, not given. You can't decide what insults me, the same as I can't decide what insults you. By that token, anyone can claim that anything anyone says is insulting to them. Agreed, and because the conference organizers wield the power to decide who speaks (or to implement deciding in some fashion), they can choose how the insult they're referring to is measured and responded to. For example, it could be by committee, etc.. I'm disappointed if, regardless of their belief on what constitutes insulting behavior, they didn't put forth at least some effort to see if Crockford could meet their standards. > Does that mean I have the ability to say "NPM's dependency management is so poor quality it's insulting" and have any talk about NPM banned? You can say that, and organize a conference that bans talk about NPM. As long as your were upfront about it, I'd be fine with it--just sounds like the trappings of a bad conference. If you invited a speaker, only to realize that they were planning to talk about NPM (say you hadn't made your contingency clear), then hopefully you would check if they would drop talk about NPM. If you found out that someone had talked about NPM at a previous conference, and so removed them from your conference without doing the above, I would be disappointed in you, too ;). > Making rules like "don't be sexist" means that to prevent someone coming, you have to show that the person was in fact being sexist. I'm not sure if you're saying that, to you, nothing in his behavior appears sexist. I was trying to think of the issue of what to do after / assuming they believed he had acted inappropriately in the past.

skafjvhs 10y ago

You're asking these activists to practice mercy. That's a big ask for someone who is learning what power feels like.

sjwright 10y ago
Quote of the day.