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People supporting bad policies like to say there are no bad consequences. You hear this about Brexit, climate change, bankrupting the government, violence and

People supporting bad policies like to say there are no bad consequences. You hear this about Brexit, climate change, bankrupting the government, violence and war, etc. It's the same rhetorical tool used for a lot of propaganda: You can lie in a moment; it takes hours or days for people to gather the evidence to disprove it. (To disarm this propaganda: It's easy to construct nonsense that sounds plausible - even to you, smart person; don't let your ego be your weakness - and professionals make a study and art of it. Don't take anything seriously unless it has serious evidence and research behind it in the first place; the first claim has the burden of proof. Also, notice that their real argument is in the unspoken assumptions behind it, how the issue is defined and framed.) Here's why I think it works: Most policy consequences are difficult to notice if you are uninformed. You can't know nationwide unemployment, GDP growth, or climate change by looking around (with some exceptions). Western economies and societies are huge and complex; often changes are subtle and slow; often they affect one set of people - probably not you - more than another set of people. Finally, in an environment that complex, it's hard to provably connect outcomes to actions (is that hurricane due to climate change? did people get cancer because of the factory's carcinogen or because of bad luck?), and the propagandists can pump out enough lies to raise doubts in people's minds (look up "FUD").

monk_e_boy 10y ago
Most people I talked to were well informed. I think a lot of people were happy to stick it to big business, most of who pay less tax than a local chippy. We felt Brexit was about control, we wanted more of it. When the USA told us off for wanting more freedom it felt a little weird... but, but, you're the land of the free. We just want to be able to control immigration. We want control from Brussels.
- threatofrain 10y ago
  Brexit will do nothing for the fact that big businesses pay less taxes than smaller businesses. What is the most robust connection linking EU departure with reigning in big business practice? Or framed another way, what is the most robust relationship linking Brexit with the decline of big business dominance? How is the marketplace going to become more egalitarian now? Are people seriously predicting a more egalitarian and regulated UK business environment due to exiting the EU? As far as I understand, the UK's membership in the EU, along with Ireland, were part of the problem in helping businesses lower their tax rate, such as with the Isle of Man, which is technically not part of the UK, and is so wielded by the British government to help big businesses evade taxes and regulations.
- helthanatos 10y ago
  I am extremely uninformed about Brexit (because I live in the US and don't have any connection to the UK or EU and don't care to read possibly false information regarding it.) So, in my simplistic and limited view on Brexit, I support it as it looks to be more freeing than being a part of the EU. ((Also, I tend to find that those currently in control of the US want to limit personal freedoms and grow government.))
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > it looks to be more freeing There are many other factors, and it depends on what you mean by "freeing". Political power, like energy and matter, is generally conserved; the question is, who controls it. * The ethical, generally accepted solution is for the people to control political power, via democratic government. (Undoubtedly it's very imperfect, but that's inevitable for every large human institution.) * When you reduce government control of political power, you usually simply transfer it to someone else and often that's not 'the people'. Lacking a systematic, rules-based way to control and express that power, it often becomes might makes right, which dis-empowers most people. * As a simple example: Less regulation by government often shifts power to big business; most consumers lose power: Government is responsive to them, and regulations often empower consumers. * Regarding Brexit, intra-European issues and power won't go away. If there is no EU, who determines trade rules? Border laws? Security issues? The fair way to do it is to take a vote. Sans the EU, it's might makes right. We've seen how that works out in Europe (and everywhere else), and in fact the EU was created to prevent a repeat of those scenarios. Now the UK is essentially refusing to respect the votes of their neighbors and will return to the stone-age doctrine of power in a state of anarchy (which is what international relations is widely regarded to be). They also don't get a vote now. There are other factors too, of course. The UK used to be a major world power; then they became a second-rate one, but allied with the U.S. and Europe. With the rise of billion-person economies in China and India, and with the U.S. already five times larger (320 million), the 60 million people in the UK become an afterthought on the world stage, with limited ability to affect the world's or their own destiny. A united Europe, however, with ten times that population is a player. The UK is 'freer' like Hawaii would be if they left the United States. Sharing government with other people is not prison or a lack of freedom, it's simply respect for others.
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not... Brexit is hardly sticking it to big business when Rupert Murdock is behind it. Just let that sink in.
  - monk_e_boy 10y ago
    Big business was behind both sides - just let that sink in

monk_e_boy 10y ago

Most people I talked to were well informed. I think a lot of people were happy to stick it to big business, most of who pay less tax than a local chippy. We felt Brexit was about control, we wanted more of it. When the USA told us off for wanting more freedom it felt a little weird... but, but, you're the land of the free. We just want to be able to control immigration. We want control from Brussels.

threatofrain 10y ago
Brexit will do nothing for the fact that big businesses pay less taxes than smaller businesses. What is the most robust connection linking EU departure with reigning in big business practice? Or framed another way, what is the most robust relationship linking Brexit with the decline of big business dominance? How is the marketplace going to become more egalitarian now? Are people seriously predicting a more egalitarian and regulated UK business environment due to exiting the EU? As far as I understand, the UK's membership in the EU, along with Ireland, were part of the problem in helping businesses lower their tax rate, such as with the Isle of Man, which is technically not part of the UK, and is so wielded by the British government to help big businesses evade taxes and regulations.
helthanatos 10y ago
I am extremely uninformed about Brexit (because I live in the US and don't have any connection to the UK or EU and don't care to read possibly false information regarding it.) So, in my simplistic and limited view on Brexit, I support it as it looks to be more freeing than being a part of the EU. ((Also, I tend to find that those currently in control of the US want to limit personal freedoms and grow government.))
- hackuser 10y ago
  > it looks to be more freeing There are many other factors, and it depends on what you mean by "freeing". Political power, like energy and matter, is generally conserved; the question is, who controls it. * The ethical, generally accepted solution is for the people to control political power, via democratic government. (Undoubtedly it's very imperfect, but that's inevitable for every large human institution.) * When you reduce government control of political power, you usually simply transfer it to someone else and often that's not 'the people'. Lacking a systematic, rules-based way to control and express that power, it often becomes might makes right, which dis-empowers most people. * As a simple example: Less regulation by government often shifts power to big business; most consumers lose power: Government is responsive to them, and regulations often empower consumers. * Regarding Brexit, intra-European issues and power won't go away. If there is no EU, who determines trade rules? Border laws? Security issues? The fair way to do it is to take a vote. Sans the EU, it's might makes right. We've seen how that works out in Europe (and everywhere else), and in fact the EU was created to prevent a repeat of those scenarios. Now the UK is essentially refusing to respect the votes of their neighbors and will return to the stone-age doctrine of power in a state of anarchy (which is what international relations is widely regarded to be). They also don't get a vote now. There are other factors too, of course. The UK used to be a major world power; then they became a second-rate one, but allied with the U.S. and Europe. With the rise of billion-person economies in China and India, and with the U.S. already five times larger (320 million), the 60 million people in the UK become an afterthought on the world stage, with limited ability to affect the world's or their own destiny. A united Europe, however, with ten times that population is a player. The UK is 'freer' like Hawaii would be if they left the United States. Sharing government with other people is not prison or a lack of freedom, it's simply respect for others.
NetStrikeForce 10y ago
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not... Brexit is hardly sticking it to big business when Rupert Murdock is behind it. Just let that sink in.
- monk_e_boy 10y ago
  Big business was behind both sides - just let that sink in