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> ...without paying the dues, which is what the Brexit camp promised This assumes the voters are gullible. But what if they are grown-ups who didn't literally
by tajen 10y ago
> ...without paying the dues, which is what the Brexit camp promised
This assumes the voters are gullible. But what if they are grown-ups who didn't literally believe Johnson, and made a decision based on rational arguments, would you accept it? Examples:
- What if, for example, voters wanted fewer immigration at all costs, and what if their elites refused to give them a referendum on this topic? Then they may decently choose to vote against their elites' interests on the next question they're asked. And boom! there goes Europe. Tough luck, but extremely bad politics too.
- What if rural workers and retired people, who demonstrated 10 years ago against the low benefits and who see violence, alcoholism and drugs raising, what if those people were genuinely getting the short end of the London intelligencia?
In both situations, it ends with "If you break my toys, I'll break yours". If you keep accepting more immigration / not reducing unemployment in countryside England, then we'll break the Europe that makes you so rich.
You know, you evoke crumbling and wars. I know nothing more pushing a country to wreckage than a divide between the rich and the poor. Which may be what happened in England.
If we want peace, it's important to listen to what other people want. I hear people blame the rise of xenophobia all across Europe. Maybe if we stop tagging anyone who suggest fewer immigration as xenophobic, and listen to a quarter of their proposals, then they won't need to vote for the extreme right?
- aaronbrethorst 10y agoThey were gullible. They were told that NHS would be better funded after brexit than before, among other lies.
- tajen 10y agoYou think 52% of the UK voters are gullible?
- aaronbrethorst 10y agoI'd argue that enough were to give Leave the win. 37% of British people saw health care as one of the most important issues facing the UK in a June survey[1], and better health care was one of the key issues pushed by the Vote Leave campaign. [1] https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3748/Concern-about-immigration-rises-as-EU-vote-approaches.aspx https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharch...
- tajen 10y ago> I'd argue that enough were to give Leave the win. In your document I read "48% people think that immigration is one of the most important issues facing Britain, just ahead of the EU referendum". The Remain camp proposed to increase immigration. 48% voters for the Leave camp as a start, that's pretty pretty high! Plus whatever % they convince about leaving Europe for other reasons. Total 52%, I'm surprised the result isn't higher actually.
- aaronbrethorst 10y agoWhat's to say that Leave is going to be able to keep to their promises on immigration either?
- tajen 10y agoCredibility is another question entirely - Look, that's how democracy works. People vote, some are gullible in both parties, some have received fewer education, some newspapers will be biased until we mandate them to only publish information of the leading party, and, yes, politicians lie. It may not be the best system we have. But that's the best system at the exception of every other we know today. No-one gets to discard the results of a vote based on how they think things should go.
- Tycho 10y agoDo you have any actual examples of people complaining that they were misled and would have voted differently if this particular issue (NHS) had been clarified for them? Personally I have not seen any examples. I've just seen sore losers on the Remain side latching onto this one vague campaign poster and declaring that the people (other people, obviously) were fooled and the result is therefore, in some way, illegitimate. It's quite possible that the entire referendum campaign period was basically irrelevant. People have been discussing and forming opinions about EU membership for years. It's not like evaluating a new electoral candidate.
- aaronbrethorst 10y agoYes. A Google search for brexit misled Quickly turns up articles like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/27/this-man-voted-for-brexit-hours-later-he-was-one-of-the-3-million-to-sign-a-petition-to-repeat-the-referendum/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/27... The unemployed father of two who is married to an Irish wife watched the crash of the country's currency, the pound, with increasing worries on Friday. But one development in particular made him change his mind [about his 'leave' vote]: “My son has mental health issues and I feared a privatization of our health care system, which is currently for free,” Kerin said. ...On Friday morning, UKIP leader Nigel Farage went on national television to say it had been a “mistake” that some campaigners promised the money currently being transferred to Brussels would be spent on health care. "Nigel Farage betrayed us," said Kerin.