10 ms·
Crockford
- okket 10y agoSee also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420
- tomohawk 10y agoIt seems pretty clear that this is more about a clique that is attacking Mr Crockford in order to obtain more power for themselves. They can now say - "Hey - you have to listen to us! We Matter! Look at what we forced the Nodevember people to do. We're a moral authority!". To go from complaining about a lack of diversity, to basically saying 'you screwed up and now need to prove your love to us by uninviting this JS superstar'. It's like the stereotypical abusive boy/girl friend requiring their lover to do something they normally wouldn't do to prove their love. It's simple bullying, really.
- jgalt212 10y agoWho are these bullies?
- asdffderty 10y agoSJWs
- gnarbarian 10y agoSocial Justice warriors.
- williamgb 10y agoSensitive subjects seem to be effective conduits by which manipulative people can control others. What drives me to despair is that all too frequently it takes only a cursory glance at the Twitter feed of the person making the loudest complaints regarding inclusivity and diversity to find comments which compromise these values. The individual in this instance goes by @nexxylove on Twitter, and has recently retweeted such statements as: "We love our freedom rhetoric in this country, but most white don't actually believe in true freedom. Removing choice is their default"[0] and "…I'm tired of the intellectual dishonesty of cis men. Disgusting."[1]. Thankfully I see significant effort by those around me to tackle these problems discreetly and in sobriety. Inclusivity isn't an extreme position, and discourse need not be monopolised by those who shout the loudest. [0] https://twitter.com/polotek/status/772113530761859072 https://twitter.com/polotek/status/772113530761859072 [1] https://twitter.com/nexxylove/status/771182690238287872 https://twitter.com/nexxylove/status/771182690238287872
- rocky1138 10y agoIs there a list of Twitter people who belong to this SJ group? I've blocked them piecemeal, but it would be great to not have to swat at mosquitoes.
- mrpsbrk 10y agoTotally agreed. Also feel this feeling of "moral superiority" is at play even when the complainers are not in a position to exert any power -- otherwise worthless people throwing mud just to feel worthy. That probably counts as practice for when they can get the upper hand.
- DefaultUserHN 10y agoAnd people wonder how all these psychopaths/sociopaths keep getting into positions of power.
- adamnemecek 10y agoThis is the dumbest article I've ever read. I feel like this isn't about Crockford, this is about being able to police people.
- danso 10y agoI'm trying to imagine an alternative timeline in which Nodevember, after having announced Crockford as a speaker and then receiving pushback on Twitter, privately discusses things with Crockford and mutually agree that they should part ways, but come up with a plausible explanation that would minimize the loss of face for both parties. (for the sake of argument, let's say we agree that conferences have the unilateral right to invite and reject whomever they want for any reason that doesn't violate current federal laws) 1) What would that public and plausible explanation be? e.g. "Due to scheduling conflicts, we regret to say that Mr. Crockford cannot give the keynote speech but will be attending etc.etc." 2) How much time would it take (in days) to plan and then move on this? 3) Is Crockford the type to take this graciously and quietly and, even though he's justified in feeling wronged, doesn't feel the need to retaliate now or in the future? edit: I think that Nodevember can do what it wants, but that it seriously fucked up for not vetting Mr. Crockford before inviting him and then really fucked up by throwing him under the bus. But that's been thoroughly discussed in last night's thread
- mzw_mzw 10y ago"it seriously fucked up for not vetting Mr. Crockford before inviting him" What exactly does Mr. Crockford need to be "vetted" for, with whom, and how exactly did those people gain the authority to decide who gets to speak and who doesn't?
- danso 10y agoWhose authority? The same authority that allows them to create Nodevember: their own. I've never run a conference so I'm only speculating here: when people decide to organize a conference, they have an idea of what ideas and environment and discussion they want to promote, whether it's Nodevember or the American Neo-Nazi Party. I don't know what Nodevember's standards are but they clearly don't allow for Crockford, and as long as it's not for reasons that might violate civil rights, e.g. if Crockford were to rely on a wheelchair and Nodevember wanted to convene at a place without elevators or ramps, they can have whatever standards they want, just like they're free to write and uphold a code of conduct they believe in. But generally, and again I've never run a conference, if you have standards, you should have them at the time of planning the conference, including when inviting keynote speakers.
- k__ 10y agoHe said a few things that feel like promoting a non inclusive environment. Which is bad, especially from someone like him, because many people look up to him and probably think it is okay to say such things. Edit: Also interesting that the HN crowd always confirms the accusations they receive.
- chris_wot 10y agoSo to be inclusive they excluded him for a few very mild but borderline comments he made that have been taken out of context. Could have been worse I guess - he could have used a gendered pronoun!
- sebringj 10y agomonads sound like gonads, its elementary humor but there's nothing offensive about it. If assholes were only attached to men, some dumb fuck would complain if he made fart jokes.
- Twirrim 10y agoDo you have examples of those things? It would go a long way to moving the conversation forwards. This seems to be the crux of the problem: accusations without anything at all backing it up. Not even specific pointers to talks given.
- aikah 10y ago> He said a few things that feel like promoting a non inclusive environment. source ? because I was unable to find anything that promotes "a non inclusive environment" in what Mr CrockFord said. Can you tell us exactly what CrockFord said that feels "non inclusive". Can you also precisely define what you mean by "non inclusive".
- barrkel 10y agoMr. Straw is part of the problem, imo. There's a lawful vs chaotic dichotomy going on - Mr. Straw started out lawful conservative, but then found out about a different set of laws he could leverage into a position of power. It's a similar but different power leverage being exercised elsewhere by a new generation. Feeling excluded by more usual measures like achievement or talent, they've taken to using social taboos and bullying to gain power. It's vaguely annoying to watch, but it's best ignored. The very lack of talent that people who use social manoeuvres to get to the top means the groups they dominate won't be very important or effective, unless it's law making directly. I'll get worried then. I'm fairly sanguine about node.js conferences.
- rhinoceraptor 10y agoOr it could be that he changed his opinions based on new perspectives like any intellectually honest person does.
- barrkel 10y agoPeople who self identify as busybodies creating rules of conduct etc. seem to me to be more interested in rules than opinions. Setting the rules, especially when it's around social norms - rules almost for the sake of rules - is a cheap power tactic pursued in organisations all over the world for decades. Thought police / religious fundamentalists exist in every political shade. It's the zealousness of the policing that I have a problem with, not the particular shade. Just my opinion. I don't care much about the politics. I don't think either side of US politics is wrong or right per se, for example. I'm just very wary of people who have strong opinions that they want to turn into rules.
- closed 10y agoI don't understand your comment. Do I need to know something about Paul Straw that isn't included in the article, or have I just missed the point?
- paulstraw 10y agoI'm wondering the same thing, tbqh. Is there something I don't know about this Paul Straw guy?
- Udo 10y agoOne of my consulting projects includes doing programming for a relatively big millenials-dominated site. Users on that site know exactly what cards to play in what order to get people on staff and/or affiliates fired - it's Crybullying all the way. It doesn't even matter if the claims made are true or not, just the proclamation of being hurt or oppressed is sufficient. The site owners ultimately making these decisions do so because they live in absolute terror of what these people could do if they turned against the site itself or them personally. We now live in a world where anything is done to appease you if you only cry loud enough. It always used to be the case in personal conflicts that whoever was better at mud slinging had a significant hand up as compared to someone who's less talented, but in combination with the new fad of Crybullying, this is a devastating tactic.
- easychris 10y agoAgree. I ran a dating site for 7 years and had to deal with such inquiries on a daily basis ("Buhuu, that guy/girl sad mean things to me, close his/her account"). Most often it turned out the complaining person was the problem. Worst cases were third parties who requested such actions on behalf of the "victim". They were loud, asked other members to complain too and even showed up in our offices to demand account closings - without any proof or valid reasoning. I never understood how people handle their real lives without being able to argue or verbally discuss such issues. Even if these include occasional insults. IMHO these are just words - you don't need to cry for higher authorities (site admins, conference organizers or law authorities) all the time.
- Udo 10y ago> I never understood how people handle their real lives without being able to argue or verbally discuss such issues My guess is they handle it very well, because they're just using a strategy that works out perfectly for them. This only has to be learned or reinforced once, and it becomes a problem solving strategy for life because it's such an easy exploit to use with our social protocols. It can be used to solve pretty much every issue where they can win by exerting pressure. Whoever happens to get in their way also often takes permanent damage by being labeled something bad that sticks and this hampers that person's ability to not only resolve the issue at hand but prevents them from being heard in the future as well. Either way, you either acquiesce or you get bulldozed.
- sebringj 10y agoCrockford did nothing wrong. Fuck Nodevember. If you have huevos or egos or whatever, don't support that conference. He is one of those guys that will email you back if you have a technical question. I know because he already did twice to me. Who can say that about someone so influential?
- sebringj 10y agoWhat's the hash tag for that? #fuck_nodevember
- BinaryIdiot 10y agoIt's another conference scam anyway. They're charging $350 for tickets with unconfirmed speakers and they have an open call for speakers. Considering the main value is out of the speakers selling before having much of anything confirmed or even finished just screams like yet another conference trying to cash in (they're even taking sponsors, too). I don't mind conferences where you have to pay mind you but I've only seen the small, borderline scammy conferences where you have to pay before finding out the full line up of speakers.
- sebringj 10y agoI never got the point of those anyways as youtube is sufficient.
- BinaryIdiot 10y agoI mean sometimes they're good if you can interact with the speakers, ask questions and maybe even network / talk with the other folks interested in the same topics as you. But yeah in general I would imagine YouTube would be better with this. Now if it's a free conference? Then I'm all for it almost always for it. YCombinator Start-up school comes to mind; I enjoyed it a lot the last time and I'm going to the upcoming one :)
- sebringj 10y ago
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- ZoF 10y agoPolitical correctness stifles upward mobility and promotes the maintenance of the current 'status quo'. We're trending towards a future where people can do anything they want as long as they have enough power and don't say anything offensive while doing it. It's horse shit to be honest; most humans don't really give a fuck about a gendered presentation slide and removing all gender references from everything isn't how you magically gain 'equality'. Some of the worst humans I know are the ones who love this garbage because it's essentially the current way to bully and silence the people you don't like.
- masterponomo 10y agoGiven the context, chicharrones was clearly a mistake or a play on the word cojones. The earnest parsers of speech for fatal psychological landmines would not in a million years be able to make this tiny mental leap, as it requires a sense of humor.
- BoringCode 10y agoThere's the old idea of "you judge your actions by your intentions and others intentions by their actions." I think culturally we've entered into this weird area where we're not even judging people so much by their actions but rather by how their actions make some people feel. There is nothing wrong with being mindful of how your statements and actions are perceived. Communication is always a two-way street where what is heard is sometimes more important than what is said. It's just too bad that we're shifting so far away from being able to understand the intentions of the speaker. Fear of saying the wrong thing never teaches someone why and what is wrong to say.
- istjohn 10y agoAbsolutely. It's great that societal norms of what is acceptable in speech are progressing to be considerate of more and more out-groups. But we need to be mindful that news of these new norms do not reach everyone simultaneously, and we should not tar and feather people for not independently coming upon the insight that a certain element of speech can be hurtful. While we should all seek to understand and empathize with the rest of the world, it's a vast, complex world beyond any one person's direct experience. If someone gratuitously drops the N-word, ostracise them; but if there is good reason to believe the speaker is well-intentioned but perhaps ignorant on some point of concern, the proper response is to discreetly engage in a respectful, open dialogue, not to publicly shame anyone. If the speech is hurtful and dialogue fruitless, direct action may be required, but not before.
- dogma1138 10y agoThese aren't norms and they aren't new the subject has changed but this is exactly the level of thought policing that true liberals used to fight and even die for. This is no different than the puritans or any other group that wish to enforce their own opinions at the expense of everyone else.
- istjohn 10y agoAsking that white men respect others is not hurting "everyone else." White men are the small group here. Norms of tolerance and mutual respect only ask that white men welcome everyone else to the table.
- sebringj 10y agoThis is a perfect synopsis. Trump is a complete spazz but a symptom of the backlash. I agree.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago> a complete retard Knock it off.
- sebringj 10y agoedited. You are right.
- ZoF 10y agoGood job, you're really convincing people.
- sebringj 10y agoWell, I think Crockford is a standup guy and probably went to far with the Trump thing and the name calling but whatever. Sometimes you get passionate about a topic, it is what it is.
- ZoF 10y agoSure, it is what it is. Consider backing up your denigration with facts next time; people aren't stupid, we can rationally analyze things. Also 'the trump thing' and 'the name calling' are the same thing. You called him a retard because you find him offensive; don't try to rewrite history. You changing your story now doesn't change the fact that you've insulted the mentally handicapped by painting them as something you perceive as negative; should I contact your previous/future employers about this?(I see you're a founder I guess I'd contact you :)) All of the above is why people are fed up with the 'left'. You can cross the line and say, 'lel I just went too far'; people with the opposite viewpoint? 'Racist bigot white male fire them now' Stay passionate Seb, hope you prove them wrong.
- torgoguys 10y agoYeah, I don't get it either. FWIW, and why I'm commenting, "promiscuity" with regards to computer communications isn't even new with Crockford. It's the exact correct term used in the industry to refer to a mode you can put network cards into if you want to inspect all traffic that reaches it, rather than just traffic indented for your workstation [0]. It goes back at least to the early 1990s when I first encountered it, probably earlier. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promiscuous_mode https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promiscuous_mode
- draw_down 10y agoSometimes people encourage me to get into speaking at conferences. There are a number of reasons I don't want to, and shit like this isn't the main one, but it certainly doesn't help. Everything just feels very tense (to be clear, I think the reasons for this are understandable) but it also just seems kind of thankless.
- Roboprog 10y agoAs for Mr Straw, glad to hear he made the decision to think for himself, rather than buying into all the BS that the conservatives or liberals / Republicans or Democrats are selling. All things in moderation, I suppose, and don't be afraid to look at the historical facts and likely consequences of decisions. Not that facts help you make a values decision about what to do when there is a "zero sum", conflict of interest type situation...
- rhapsodic 10y agoI think the only way to oppose this tidal wave of bullying and shaming and witch hunting is to employ all of the same tactics the cry-bullies employ. People and organizations cave to these bullies because, in their cost-benefit calculations, they see little or no downside to caving, and possible upside. In order to stop this, it has to made costly to cave to them. If everyone who thinks it was ridiculous and cowardly for Nodevember to uninvite Crockford were to make it known that they would boycott Nodevember and their corporate sponsors in the future, they might see things differently. Also, people who routinely seek to destroy the reputations and careers of people who don't speak and behave according to their strict standard should run the risk of having their own careers and reputations destroyed in response. This form of sweet justice happens once in a while, but not nearly enough.
- istjohn 10y agoIt disappoints me to see how many folks on Hacker News have responded to this incident by condemning the entire concept of standards of conduct and the idea that the developer community should take the goal of inclusivity and sensitivity seriously. There is no question that our community too often can feel hostile to those who aren't white hetero men, and that is a real problem. On the other hand, there is no question that advocates for inclusivity are sometimes overzealous and careless, and no doubt, some people have even exploited the issue in bad faith for their own aims. These mistakes confuse and alienate would-be allies in the community. While no doubt well-intentioned, Nodevember has hurt the cause. My plea to those who are tempted to dismiss the whole project of inclusivity in response to this incident is this: The program needs debugging, but that doesn't mean the program is unworkable or the goals are undesirable. Perhaps we forgot a semicolon somewhere, or maybe we need to do a complete rewrite. But creating a community that is comfortable for everyone is an inherently valuable goal. And it doesn't need to be uncomfortable for cisgendered hetero white men, either. Please don't abandon this goal. Instead, let's engage in a constructive dialogue to figure out how to do better.
- sheepmullet 10y ago> It disappoints me to see how many folks on Hacker News have responded to this incident by condemning the entire concept of standards of conduct Because they are consistently abused by manipulative sociopaths. > While no doubt well-intentioned, Nodevember has hurt the cause. It isn't well-intentioned at all. In every large group/community there are those who will try and take advantage of others. You need checks and balances if you want to limit abuse. In this case there clearly are no checks and balances. As a brown man it isn't the "white hetro men" who are making me afraid to attend conferences..... A "white hetro man" might make a comment or tell a joke that makes me feel a little uncomfortable. A power mad "SJW" will publicly shame me and hurt my career.
- rhapsodic 10y ago> But creating a community that is comfortable for everyone is an inherently valuable goal. Well, I can never be comfortable in a community where I might have my reputation and/or career destroyed over a reference to testicles that some might deem inappropriate. The people doing this are vicious and hateful, and they need to be given a taste of their own medicine.
- youdontknowtho 10y agoI can't think of a more unpopular position...maybe someone trying to support the DMCA, or something. And I know how unpopular this will be, but all I can do is try to be genuine and respond honestly. The thing is...as a white man (from the south, no less), I know that I can't make some references or jokes because I benefit from traditions and norms that stem from historical wrongs or unjust power relationships. At one point in my life my personal safety was completely at the whim of someone else. It changed the way that I look at relationships. I think that people can judge you best for who you are when no one can force you to do something different. You are who you are when no one can stop you. What does that have to do with Mr. Crockford having some disagreeable language in a presentation? It's because --- when he doesn't have to --- he chooses to use language that unnecessarily references sexuality and gender in ways that reinforce the negative things that some people have experienced. I would be lying to you and to myself if I said that I always completely understand or identify with some of the things that other people have gone through. Having gone through something that changed the way I look at the world and the ways in which people interact, I try to give them the space. There is a reason why "professional" language has changed over the last 50 years. It's so that people can meet and carry out a task without bringing emotion and baggage to a situation where it can be counterproductive. I don't know how you could look at the world as it is today and think that things like this are even remotely a large problem. Even ESR's talk about this stuff being a threat to STEM? I know people, have met them, went to church with them as a child, that are a threat to STEM. Some of them actively lobby state organizations, civil and purely political, to "toughen" their stances on creationism and "family values". It's horrifying. They actively work to have textbooks changed. If you think that people who just want to be comfortable in a setting around their peers at a conference are somehow worse, I would like to assure you that they are not. Do they say dumb things on Twitter? Of course they do. Twitter was designed to strip the intelligence from communications. And of course, none of you have ever said anything stupid on a public forum? Another thing. Lest you think me some kind of squishy liberal SJW fag...or whatever you are calling people these days. I have seen, committed, and been party to more violence than most people my age. I'm not a soldier. I'm also not a criminal. I've tried very hard over the years to build a good productive life for myself. It wasn't easy. It isn't easy. You don't know me and I don't know you. I'm often reminded of this interview I saw with a French Savate fighter. He was in his late 50's and looked like any other geezer his age during the interview. Except that every other geezer in France didn't finish a fight with two broken arms. You never know who you are insulting. People all over the world are carrying tremendous burdens of memory and emotion and are trying to live and move on. That extra little bit of angry that you send their way. It adds up. Everyone wants to feel persecuted, you guys are right about that. You may want to look at your own thoughts and try to see if there is some persecution complex going on there. Just be nice. Butt out of things that don't concern you. Write more code, but mainly just be nice.
- joaoqalves 10y agoThis "X shaming" or "X gender inappropriate joke" is really getting out of hand. You can't say anything anymore. You may hurt someone's feelings, bla bla bla. I'm sick of this. I'm sick of this political correctness that is intoxicating our society. You cannot say anymore: "hey, grow a pair!" because this is sexist? Come on... this is insane! One thing is to respect everybody and another one is to apply censorship to everything. Even though people didn't meant to offend, harass or shame other people.
- artursapek 10y ago> Even though people didn't meant to offend, harass or shame other people. That's the thing - people who shame others are not looking at intent behind actions; they're getting offended by shallow interpretations (a sign of insecurity). Any reasonable person looking at Crockford making his "weak" joke would not think his intention was to harass physically weak people. This kind of shit is also why you see people like /r/the_donald aggressively provoking and fighting back against these so-called "SJW's" - the pendulum has swung way too far the opposite way.
- stephenr 10y ago> This kind of shit is also why you see people like /r/the_donald I'm not sure if you just referred to a subreddit as a person, or referred to a ridiculously famous man by the path to the subreddit about him? Either way, wtf.
- artursapek 10y agoI referred to the people on /r/the_donald, as a group
- infodroid 10y agoHow come this story and the previous one have been penalized on HN despite the high number of upvotes? This story was published to HN only an hour ago but has gathered over 115 points, yet it has been relegated to page 2. The previous story [1] was published 14 hours ago and has over 540 points, yet is now to be found on page 4. If the algorithm was operating as usual then both stories would still be in the top half of the front page. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422420
- istjohn 10y agoWould getting flagged bump it down? It's a shame people don't think this is a worthwhile conversation to be having.
- rhapsodic 10y agoI don't think "worthwhile" had anything to do with their motivation for flagging it. They're probably afraid that the conversation might spark a backlash against Nodevember and their corporate sponsors.
- sridca 10y agoHow does anyone know that this happens because of flagging? What if the moderator(s) did it? Does HN have a moderation log at all?
- douche 10y agoI'm really starting to think that flags need to be severely gimped in the front-page algorithm. Lately all the interesting stuff that generates discussion gets bounced after an hour or two, whereas relatively boring, non-controversial stuff that no one comments on remains sometimes for days on the front page.
- ondreian 10y agoGreat dissection. Thanks Paul
- closed 10y agoIt seems like those calling for removing speakers are often trying to set identity contingencies. That is, a rule like, "if you are Douglas Crockford, then you can't speak at a conference". However, like identity contingencies against people based on gender, race, etc.. this kind of rule is disappointing because it assumes there is something inherently limited or bad about being Douglas Crockford. What seems better to me would be asking for an explicit behavioral contingency on being a conference speaker. For example, "if you are going to make sexist remarks, then you cannot speak at the conference". This makes clear that if you think Douglas Crockford is not fundamentally broken as a human, but could learn and become better at following the contingencies set by the conference, then he is fine to speak. It also opens room to work with Crockford to create a plan for him to speak at the conference, such as going over his speech beforehand, or sitting down with him afterward to discuss ways in which he may have violated the conference's standards. He can't stop being Douglas Crockford, but I don't think that means he can't stop producing behaviors conference organizers find offensive or harmful (if he wants to). P.s. check out the book Whistling Vivaldi for an interesting introduction to some potentially harmful (or beneficial) effects of identity contingencies.
- stephenr 10y agoThat concept won't work for these people. Making rules like "don't be sexist" means that to prevent someone coming, you have to show that the person was in fact being sexist. The homepage for Nodevember has a big "code of conduct" section. No idea if it's new or not, but one bit is: > Do not insult or put down other attendees. Insult is taken, not given. You can't decide what insults me, the same as I can't decide what insults you. By that token, anyone can claim that anything anyone says is insulting to them. I find plenty of common nodejs community 'norms' to be insulting to my eyes to read, never mind to my brain having to deal with the mental shenanigans required to try to make sense of the decisions made. Does that mean I have the ability to say "NPM's dependency management is so poor quality it's insulting" and have any talk about NPM banned?
- closed 10y ago> Insult is taken, not given. You can't decide what insults me, the same as I can't decide what insults you. By that token, anyone can claim that anything anyone says is insulting to them. Agreed, and because the conference organizers wield the power to decide who speaks (or to implement deciding in some fashion), they can choose how the insult they're referring to is measured and responded to. For example, it could be by committee, etc.. I'm disappointed if, regardless of their belief on what constitutes insulting behavior, they didn't put forth at least some effort to see if Crockford could meet their standards. > Does that mean I have the ability to say "NPM's dependency management is so poor quality it's insulting" and have any talk about NPM banned? You can say that, and organize a conference that bans talk about NPM. As long as your were upfront about it, I'd be fine with it--just sounds like the trappings of a bad conference. If you invited a speaker, only to realize that they were planning to talk about NPM (say you hadn't made your contingency clear), then hopefully you would check if they would drop talk about NPM. If you found out that someone had talked about NPM at a previous conference, and so removed them from your conference without doing the above, I would be disappointed in you, too ;). > Making rules like "don't be sexist" means that to prevent someone coming, you have to show that the person was in fact being sexist. I'm not sure if you're saying that, to you, nothing in his behavior appears sexist. I was trying to think of the issue of what to do after / assuming they believed he had acted inappropriately in the past.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- bobjordan 10y agoI'm a liberal with three daughters and I'm certainly pro-inclusion but this repulses me. We've grown as a society to over-indulge people with fragile personalities. Yuk.
- polotics 10y agoI disagree about the notion that the attack on Crockford comes from "people with fragile personalities", this look to me more like advanced identity politics manipulated at a high level, definitely would take me 10'000 hours to master.
- dodyg 10y agoFirst they came for Brendan Eich and I did not speak out because I was pro gay marriage. Then they came for Douglas Crockford and I did not speak out because I did not attend JavaScript conferences. Then they came for me—and it did not matter because I am a C# programmer.
- sjwright 10y agoCute. However conflating or equating what Douglas Crockford has done with Brendan Eich is in my estimation unreasonable. As far as anyone can tell, at worst Crockford has a conversational style that isn't excessively concerned with political correctness or charm. He used words like "gonads" and "promiscuous" in a way that can be misconstrued. At worst, Brendan Eich can be accused of working to actively work against the aspirations of a community because they are different to him, even though these aspirations don't materially affect him.
- dodyg 10y agoGay marriage was illegal in the US until last year. His position was not a fringe position. I am glad marriage equality comes to the US but if we start prosecuting people for their political beliefs, things are going to get ugly real quick. The tide of political direction can turn on a dime. How about marijuana legalization? It's coming to all of the US states sooner or later. Let's start making a list of people who are against it so we can start a revenge hit later.
- sjwright 10y agoI completely agree with you. I'm just saying the two controversies, on a relative basis, aren't in the same order of magnitude.
- dodyg 10y agoGot it. I don't understand how the word promiscuous become such a toxic word even in the context of human relationship. We are several years into the era of Tinder and other hookup apps and people are still freaking out with the concept.
- ufmace 10y agoIn cases like these, it's worth thinking a bit about tolerance. Tolerance, simply put, is behaving politely and professionally towards people and organizations that you dislike. Note the "that you dislike" part. Think you're tolerant because, say, you don't mind being around gay people? Well, do you hate gay people? If you say no to that, then you aren't being tolerant at all by being around them, you're just normal. Do you hate, say, Neo-nazis? Then you can demonstrate your tolerance by engaging with them politely and professionally if you encounter any. Apparently, at some point, we not only ran away from being proud of our tolerance, many people are wearing their level of intolerance as a badge of pride. In some circles, it seems to be a good thing to find anybody who disagrees with you in some way, and gather a virtual lynch mob to make sure that the worst thing you can arrange happens to them. Personally, I don't think Crockford did anything wrong. But if you do, why don't you try demonstrating your tolerance by welcoming him at your conference anyways and listening to his views on technical subjects? If he says something that bothers you, you can calmly and politely explain to him how his statement hurt you, or maybe even just let it go. That's what tolerance looks like. Can we please get back to making real tolerance something to be proud of?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Graham67 10y agoFundamentalists are immediately, overwhelmingly, correct.
- rkapsoro 10y agoA key pillar of today's identity politics is a default state of victimhood in a zero-sum world where a crass rubric of privilege is the only determinant of one's outcome. Sadly, when people (are made to) believe they are victims, almost any amount of egregious behavior opens up for them. We should not quietly tolerate puritanical bullying behavior from the far left any more than we did that from the far right.
- mrpsbrk 10y agoA point i didn't see mentioned is that the talk about "having the balls" is all about the fear-of-monads being overblown and unjustified, and in this context making unfunny jokes about overblown and unjustified bravado conveys a point -- and does so in a way that no amount of explaining that "it's not so bad really" would. I actually think saying he was being exclusionary in this instance is downright bad faith.