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Is that how Europe is governed? I think any country should be allowed to leave without condescending comments by anyone. I think people can handle condescendin

Is that how Europe is governed? I think any country should be allowed to leave without condescending comments by anyone. I think people can handle condescending comments. The problem is that you cannot reap the benefits without paying dues, which is what the Brexit camp promised. It's in the interest of the remaining EU members to make this clear, or the whole union will crumble. It's likely that this will throw back Europe to nationalism and protectionism, which is counter-productive. (Europe's history is littered with wars, if we don't want to consider the previous centuries, look no further than former Yugoslavia or Ukraine.)

tajen 10y ago
> ...without paying the dues, which is what the Brexit camp promised This assumes the voters are gullible. But what if they are grown-ups who didn't literally believe Johnson, and made a decision based on rational arguments, would you accept it? Examples: - What if, for example, voters wanted fewer immigration at all costs, and what if their elites refused to give them a referendum on this topic? Then they may decently choose to vote against their elites' interests on the next question they're asked. And boom! there goes Europe. Tough luck, but extremely bad politics too. - What if rural workers and retired people, who demonstrated 10 years ago against the low benefits and who see violence, alcoholism and drugs raising, what if those people were genuinely getting the short end of the London intelligencia? In both situations, it ends with "If you break my toys, I'll break yours". If you keep accepting more immigration / not reducing unemployment in countryside England, then we'll break the Europe that makes you so rich. You know, you evoke crumbling and wars. I know nothing more pushing a country to wreckage than a divide between the rich and the poor. Which may be what happened in England. If we want peace, it's important to listen to what other people want. I hear people blame the rise of xenophobia all across Europe. Maybe if we stop tagging anyone who suggest fewer immigration as xenophobic, and listen to a quarter of their proposals, then they won't need to vote for the extreme right?
- aaronbrethorst 10y ago
  They were gullible. They were told that NHS would be better funded after brexit than before, among other lies.
  - tajen 10y ago
    You think 52% of the UK voters are gullible?
    - aaronbrethorst 10y ago
      I'd argue that enough were to give Leave the win. 37% of British people saw health care as one of the most important issues facing the UK in a June survey[1], and better health care was one of the key issues pushed by the Vote Leave campaign. [1] https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3748/Concern-about-immigration-rises-as-EU-vote-approaches.aspx https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharch...
      - tajen 10y ago
        > I'd argue that enough were to give Leave the win. In your document I read "48% people think that immigration is one of the most important issues facing Britain, just ahead of the EU referendum". The Remain camp proposed to increase immigration. 48% voters for the Leave camp as a start, that's pretty pretty high! Plus whatever % they convince about leaving Europe for other reasons. Total 52%, I'm surprised the result isn't higher actually.
        aaronbrethorst 10y ago
        What's to say that Leave is going to be able to keep to their promises on immigration either?
        tajen 10y ago
        Credibility is another question entirely - Look, that's how democracy works. People vote, some are gullible in both parties, some have received fewer education, some newspapers will be biased until we mandate them to only publish information of the leading party, and, yes, politicians lie. It may not be the best system we have. But that's the best system at the exception of every other we know today. No-one gets to discard the results of a vote based on how they think things should go.
yummyfajitas 10y ago
Why can't they? Canada does. Apart from desire to punish the UK, what prevents the EU and the UK from coming to a CETA like agreement (exactly as Boris and May have expressed support for)?
- Scarblac 10y ago
  Nothing, except that sort of thing takes about to decade to negotiate.

tajen 10y ago

> ...without paying the dues, which is what the Brexit camp promised This assumes the voters are gullible. But what if they are grown-ups who didn't literally believe Johnson, and made a decision based on rational arguments, would you accept it? Examples: - What if, for example, voters wanted fewer immigration at all costs, and what if their elites refused to give them a referendum on this topic? Then they may decently choose to vote against their elites' interests on the next question they're asked. And boom! there goes Europe. Tough luck, but extremely bad politics too. - What if rural workers and retired people, who demonstrated 10 years ago against the low benefits and who see violence, alcoholism and drugs raising, what if those people were genuinely getting the short end of the London intelligencia? In both situations, it ends with "If you break my toys, I'll break yours". If you keep accepting more immigration / not reducing unemployment in countryside England, then we'll break the Europe that makes you so rich. You know, you evoke crumbling and wars. I know nothing more pushing a country to wreckage than a divide between the rich and the poor. Which may be what happened in England. If we want peace, it's important to listen to what other people want. I hear people blame the rise of xenophobia all across Europe. Maybe if we stop tagging anyone who suggest fewer immigration as xenophobic, and listen to a quarter of their proposals, then they won't need to vote for the extreme right?

aaronbrethorst 10y ago
They were gullible. They were told that NHS would be better funded after brexit than before, among other lies.
- tajen 10y ago
  You think 52% of the UK voters are gullible?
  - aaronbrethorst 10y ago
    I'd argue that enough were to give Leave the win. 37% of British people saw health care as one of the most important issues facing the UK in a June survey[1], and better health care was one of the key issues pushed by the Vote Leave campaign. [1] https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3748/Concern-about-immigration-rises-as-EU-vote-approaches.aspx https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharch...
    - tajen 10y ago
      > I'd argue that enough were to give Leave the win. In your document I read "48% people think that immigration is one of the most important issues facing Britain, just ahead of the EU referendum". The Remain camp proposed to increase immigration. 48% voters for the Leave camp as a start, that's pretty pretty high! Plus whatever % they convince about leaving Europe for other reasons. Total 52%, I'm surprised the result isn't higher actually.
      - aaronbrethorst 10y ago
        What's to say that Leave is going to be able to keep to their promises on immigration either?
        tajen 10y ago
        Credibility is another question entirely - Look, that's how democracy works. People vote, some are gullible in both parties, some have received fewer education, some newspapers will be biased until we mandate them to only publish information of the leading party, and, yes, politicians lie. It may not be the best system we have. But that's the best system at the exception of every other we know today. No-one gets to discard the results of a vote based on how they think things should go.

yummyfajitas 10y ago

Why can't they? Canada does. Apart from desire to punish the UK, what prevents the EU and the UK from coming to a CETA like agreement (exactly as Boris and May have expressed support for)?

Scarblac 10y ago
Nothing, except that sort of thing takes about to decade to negotiate.