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I understand, thanks for elaborating on that matter. In a way, a clean way to do it would to be a call for elections, and a proper mandate - either to stay in,

by wuschel 10y ago

I understand, thanks for elaborating on that matter. In a way, a clean way to do it would to be a call for elections, and a proper mandate - either to stay in, or stay out. But that might not happen, considering the nature of the political game. I agree about the reasons to worry, and to have a proper discussion. Things tend to get out of hand sometimes when it comes to media.

m0nty 10y ago
> a clean way to do it would to be a call for elections Absolutely, but the weakness of the opposition Labour party and the near-annihilation of the Liberal Democrats at the last election mean (as things stand) it's mostly a foregone conclusion that the Conservatives will win. So to their way of looking at things, they will have two mandates to leave. It's an extraordinary situation, though. I said to my son on the morning the result was announced, this will affect all of us for the rest of our lives. I still don't think I was being hyperbolic. Seasoned politicians and commentators are saying it's our biggest political crisis since WW2 or Suez, and that's even coming from people who seem to support Brexit.
- gsnedders 10y ago
  The Labour situation probably also makes it unlikely for it to be plausible to call for elections, as to call an early election in the simplest way requires a 2/3rds majority of the House in favour (i.e., 431 votes, 101 seats more than the Tories hold). The alternative, which the Tories in principle could do alone, is pass a motion of no confidence in the Government, wait two weeks, and then the House falls to an election (this assumes that all Tories would vote as a block, thereby making it impossible for a motion of confidence to be passed in those two week).
sverige 10y ago
I thought the vote for stay in or stay out was already had. Are you proposing to do it over and over until you get the result you want, then declare that this is the mandate?
- wuschel 10y ago
  As mentioned above, the vote has been made - but is not legally binding. I completely agree that one should respect the vote of the voters - after all, isn't that one of the basis of our western political systems? On the other hand, what if the electorate did not vote out of protest, was misinformed by the politicians or media, or simply not educated enough to make the proper choice? Apart from the shocking failure of an established western democracy to make a good economical and political choice, what are the consequences at stake here? For our startup, for instance, it means that we considered dropping potential R&D partners from the UK. For the UK economy, the consequences might be devastating. In general, I am all for removing UK's special privileges, and their counterproductive attitude towards the EU. But I also do not want to see them go. The EU would loose a member state, and the UK might desintegrate (Northern Ireland and Scotland sure want to stay in the EU!).
  - sverige 10y ago
    > On the other hand, what if the electorate did not vote out of protest, was misinformed by the politicians or media, or simply not educated enough to make the proper choice? Apart from the shocking failure of an established western democracy to make a good economical and political choice, what are the consequences at stake here? Well, that has always been the risk with democracy. People disagree, one side of a vote wins, the other side loses. But you can't simply accuse the winning side of being misinformed or uneducated or irrational unless you are willing to accept that they view you in the same light. And making that argument publicly, as the Remain side has very vocally since losing, only hardens the position of those on the other side that you know nothing and are not worth listening to since you obviously don't see the good that will come from their victory. So all the rest (economic devastation, EU disintegration, counterproductive attitudes) might be exactly what they desire. And they're in the majority, in a democracy. If you dislike that, perhaps democracy isn't really your preferred form of government.
    - wuschel 10y ago
      Generally, I do agree with you. Voting power, even if it is just one vote, comes with responsibility. And one should respect a vote, and also demand from a voter to behave in a mature, educated and responsible way. > So all the rest (economic devastation, EU disintegration, counterproductive attitudes) might be exactly [...] I doubt that one can draw a straight line from the outcome of the referendum to a fatalistic, self destructive attitude of the population of the UK. There are many factors at play here - protest votes against the political establishment, general abstinence, phobia against EU bureaucracy, nationalistic tendencies et cetera. I am not in the picture here, since I have never lived long enough in the UK to understand the tendencies at hand. > perhaps democracy isn't really your preferred form of government. I will not comment on that apart from the remark that every form of human government has its suboptimal characteristics. Democracy is not such a bad solution - apart from the fact when it fails. All in all, again, the EU will survive the BREXIT, albeit it will take damage. The UK might not.

by wuschel 10y ago

m0nty 10y ago

> a clean way to do it would to be a call for elections Absolutely, but the weakness of the opposition Labour party and the near-annihilation of the Liberal Democrats at the last election mean (as things stand) it's mostly a foregone conclusion that the Conservatives will win. So to their way of looking at things, they will have two mandates to leave. It's an extraordinary situation, though. I said to my son on the morning the result was announced, this will affect all of us for the rest of our lives. I still don't think I was being hyperbolic. Seasoned politicians and commentators are saying it's our biggest political crisis since WW2 or Suez, and that's even coming from people who seem to support Brexit.

gsnedders 10y ago
The Labour situation probably also makes it unlikely for it to be plausible to call for elections, as to call an early election in the simplest way requires a 2/3rds majority of the House in favour (i.e., 431 votes, 101 seats more than the Tories hold). The alternative, which the Tories in principle could do alone, is pass a motion of no confidence in the Government, wait two weeks, and then the House falls to an election (this assumes that all Tories would vote as a block, thereby making it impossible for a motion of confidence to be passed in those two week).

sverige 10y ago

I thought the vote for stay in or stay out was already had. Are you proposing to do it over and over until you get the result you want, then declare that this is the mandate?

wuschel 10y ago
As mentioned above, the vote has been made - but is not legally binding. I completely agree that one should respect the vote of the voters - after all, isn't that one of the basis of our western political systems? On the other hand, what if the electorate did not vote out of protest, was misinformed by the politicians or media, or simply not educated enough to make the proper choice? Apart from the shocking failure of an established western democracy to make a good economical and political choice, what are the consequences at stake here? For our startup, for instance, it means that we considered dropping potential R&D partners from the UK. For the UK economy, the consequences might be devastating. In general, I am all for removing UK's special privileges, and their counterproductive attitude towards the EU. But I also do not want to see them go. The EU would loose a member state, and the UK might desintegrate (Northern Ireland and Scotland sure want to stay in the EU!).
- sverige 10y ago
  > On the other hand, what if the electorate did not vote out of protest, was misinformed by the politicians or media, or simply not educated enough to make the proper choice? Apart from the shocking failure of an established western democracy to make a good economical and political choice, what are the consequences at stake here? Well, that has always been the risk with democracy. People disagree, one side of a vote wins, the other side loses. But you can't simply accuse the winning side of being misinformed or uneducated or irrational unless you are willing to accept that they view you in the same light. And making that argument publicly, as the Remain side has very vocally since losing, only hardens the position of those on the other side that you know nothing and are not worth listening to since you obviously don't see the good that will come from their victory. So all the rest (economic devastation, EU disintegration, counterproductive attitudes) might be exactly what they desire. And they're in the majority, in a democracy. If you dislike that, perhaps democracy isn't really your preferred form of government.
  - wuschel 10y ago
    Generally, I do agree with you. Voting power, even if it is just one vote, comes with responsibility. And one should respect a vote, and also demand from a voter to behave in a mature, educated and responsible way. > So all the rest (economic devastation, EU disintegration, counterproductive attitudes) might be exactly [...] I doubt that one can draw a straight line from the outcome of the referendum to a fatalistic, self destructive attitude of the population of the UK. There are many factors at play here - protest votes against the political establishment, general abstinence, phobia against EU bureaucracy, nationalistic tendencies et cetera. I am not in the picture here, since I have never lived long enough in the UK to understand the tendencies at hand. > perhaps democracy isn't really your preferred form of government. I will not comment on that apart from the remark that every form of human government has its suboptimal characteristics. Democracy is not such a bad solution - apart from the fact when it fails. All in all, again, the EU will survive the BREXIT, albeit it will take damage. The UK might not.