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Norway has zero transparency when it comes to children rights. Some governments (Slovak, Czech, Romania) recommend not to travel there with children. EDIT: So

by jkot 10y ago

Norway has zero transparency when it comes to children rights. Some governments (Slovak, Czech, Romania) recommend not to travel there with children. EDIT: Some explanations. - In Norway social services (Barnevernet) can take children from family without any explanation. - Parents are under gag order, and can not talk about their case. Talking to press means you loose parental rights. - There is no appeal, proof, or any oversight. - Barnevernet does not release ANY details about cases. It is to protect children. - No details are released even if child is already dead (suicide) and does not need protection. - Bernevernet has zero oversight, it does not even allow foreign social workers to look into their materials. - People who work for Bernevernet can also work for private companies which provide child care (unique in Europe). So person who decides on child removal may have direct financial benefit from doing so. - Siblings are often split and placed far apart (8 hours drive). - Removed children must speak Norwegian, mother tongue is suppressed (siblings are split). Foster parents often do not have common language with children. - Relatives of children (grandparents, aunties, divorced parents) have zero chance to get custody. - Anonymous surveys (parents are under gag order) indicate there are thousands of such cases (Norway is very small country). Mostly immigrants.

ced 10y ago
What do you mean? What can happen?
- EliRivers 10y ago
  Norway is big on protecting children. In particular, some things that seem normal in some cultures - open-handed slaps, whipping them with a belt or other such weapon - are illegal. There have been some cases recently where children have been removed from their families, and because Norway is so big on protecting children, they don't release to the press the details of the cases. I suspect that some of the outcry might be because of these two facts; because "of course" it's ridiculous to take children from their families because of a little physical punishment, and combined with the information vacuum, rumours and supposition take the place of fact. There will also be a strong correlation between immigrant families (from physical punishment cultures) and the application of physical punishment, which will make the stats look odd at first glance.
maaaats 10y ago
Is this comment based on the single, recent case that has been severely misrepresented in religious circles?
- jkot 10y ago
  There are a few thousands such cases, mostly in east-european countries. It is recommended not to bring your family to Norway, if you find job there.
  - msh 10y ago
    What is this referring to?
    - jkot 10y ago
      Barnevernet, social services, child abduction.
      - msh 10y ago
        That's not really helpful. For anyone to make sense of it you need to put in more details or references.
    - olavgg 10y ago
      In Norway we have a very aggressive child protection organization called "Barnevernet". Everything that is considered normal child care in other countries, may be very wrong here. There recently was an indian couple that lost the right to take care of their children, because they punished them by for example eating from the floor when they did not behave. This is very common in India. I believe after a while they got their children back as they got more educated. So if you have plans to move your familiy here, you have to adapt to our culture of child care. On the other hand, this organization will more often catch and follow-up children in homes which could be dangerous for them. In that way we can prevent that the children will have social issues when they are grown ups which is a benefit for our society as whole.
- 10y ago
czechdeveloper 10y ago
Problem is, that they don't discuss the cases with anyone (because of children protection). They may all be valid abuse cases, but they will just not present any data about them. In most famous case in Czech, I believe it was real abuse. Despite that common Czech perception is that is was basically misunderstanding. In other cases I'm not so sure, but I miss lots of data. It's also not about basic travel, but living there. But it all comes to the rules. You live there, you must adapt. Czech are crazy when immigrants don't adapt/integrate, but they don't want to do the same abroad.
- jkot 10y ago
  I believe you are talking about Michaláková. She lost parental rights because she talked to press. http://zpravy.idnes.cz/norsko-michalakova-soud-0w5-/domaci.aspx?c=A160701_071826_domaci_kha http://zpravy.idnes.cz/norsko-michalakova-soud-0w5-/domaci.a...
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
I'm an immigrant in Norway. I do not have children, but have heard the stories. I used to hear some of the same stories in the American system, which also tends to not release details to protect the children. Norway has strict laws about children and children have rights. These laws aren't bent because one is from another culture and living here. For example, physical punishment is pretty common in the US, but it is outright illegal here. It is seen as child abuse. If you have a drug problem, you might get your children taken away until you get yourself straigtened out. Sometimes you have to have classes or observation, and sometimes your children are removed until you do so. And honestly, from what I've seen with other immigrants, so long as you are following Norwegian law with the child, there isn't a problem. > Parents are under gag order. This is to protect the children. You see, if everyone finds out about it, they might treat the child differently or it might cause hardship or embarrass the child. And equality between kids is really important, so this sort of thing is avoided. > There is no appeal, proof, or any oversight. This is simply untrue. It might take time to appeal, but one can. Proof is an odd thing, and if things aren't clear upfront, they will take steps to make sure that the child won't be in danger if it is true. One has avenues to get help, but one must work within the system and take the steps. I don't know how well they work with foreign social workers, but again, if it is illegal in the country, you might be out of luck. People usually are expected to follow the laws of the country they are in. > Does not release any details about cases, to protect children... even if child is already dead. Again, to protect children. In the case that the child dies, this is truly more to protect what might be innocent parties involved. > Siblings are often split This is not unique to Norway. Sometimes this is the only way to keep kids safe: Other times, this is done while the investigation is going on so that one child doesn't influence the others. > Removed children must speak Norwegian, the mother tongue is suppressed. First, the kids will learn once they get school age - or earlier, if they are in kindergarden. It would be expected if they live here for an extended time because otehrwise they will be singled out. This really is just an effect of living in a foreign country. Finding safe homes with speakers of every language would be very difficult, and again. Better to find safe homes. This isn't something deliberate to harm people. > relatives of children have zero chance to get custody. I don't know for sure, but I doubt this is true and more rumor than anything. It would depend on the situation. In some cases, there would be little chance because the relative wouldn't keep the child removed from the threat (parents), but other cases, it might be possible. > anonymous surveys... Proof, man. Otherwise this is just rumor.

by jkot 10y ago

ced 10y ago

What do you mean? What can happen?

EliRivers 10y ago
Norway is big on protecting children. In particular, some things that seem normal in some cultures - open-handed slaps, whipping them with a belt or other such weapon - are illegal. There have been some cases recently where children have been removed from their families, and because Norway is so big on protecting children, they don't release to the press the details of the cases. I suspect that some of the outcry might be because of these two facts; because "of course" it's ridiculous to take children from their families because of a little physical punishment, and combined with the information vacuum, rumours and supposition take the place of fact. There will also be a strong correlation between immigrant families (from physical punishment cultures) and the application of physical punishment, which will make the stats look odd at first glance.

maaaats 10y ago

Is this comment based on the single, recent case that has been severely misrepresented in religious circles?

jkot 10y ago
There are a few thousands such cases, mostly in east-european countries. It is recommended not to bring your family to Norway, if you find job there.
- msh 10y ago
  What is this referring to?
  - jkot 10y ago
    Barnevernet, social services, child abduction.
    - msh 10y ago
      That's not really helpful. For anyone to make sense of it you need to put in more details or references.
  - olavgg 10y ago
    In Norway we have a very aggressive child protection organization called "Barnevernet". Everything that is considered normal child care in other countries, may be very wrong here. There recently was an indian couple that lost the right to take care of their children, because they punished them by for example eating from the floor when they did not behave. This is very common in India. I believe after a while they got their children back as they got more educated. So if you have plans to move your familiy here, you have to adapt to our culture of child care. On the other hand, this organization will more often catch and follow-up children in homes which could be dangerous for them. In that way we can prevent that the children will have social issues when they are grown ups which is a benefit for our society as whole.
10y ago

czechdeveloper 10y ago

Problem is, that they don't discuss the cases with anyone (because of children protection). They may all be valid abuse cases, but they will just not present any data about them. In most famous case in Czech, I believe it was real abuse. Despite that common Czech perception is that is was basically misunderstanding. In other cases I'm not so sure, but I miss lots of data. It's also not about basic travel, but living there. But it all comes to the rules. You live there, you must adapt. Czech are crazy when immigrants don't adapt/integrate, but they don't want to do the same abroad.

jkot 10y ago
I believe you are talking about Michaláková. She lost parental rights because she talked to press. http://zpravy.idnes.cz/norsko-michalakova-soud-0w5-/domaci.aspx?c=A160701_071826_domaci_kha http://zpravy.idnes.cz/norsko-michalakova-soud-0w5-/domaci.a...

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

I'm an immigrant in Norway. I do not have children, but have heard the stories. I used to hear some of the same stories in the American system, which also tends to not release details to protect the children. Norway has strict laws about children and children have rights. These laws aren't bent because one is from another culture and living here. For example, physical punishment is pretty common in the US, but it is outright illegal here. It is seen as child abuse. If you have a drug problem, you might get your children taken away until you get yourself straigtened out. Sometimes you have to have classes or observation, and sometimes your children are removed until you do so. And honestly, from what I've seen with other immigrants, so long as you are following Norwegian law with the child, there isn't a problem. > Parents are under gag order. This is to protect the children. You see, if everyone finds out about it, they might treat the child differently or it might cause hardship or embarrass the child. And equality between kids is really important, so this sort of thing is avoided. > There is no appeal, proof, or any oversight. This is simply untrue. It might take time to appeal, but one can. Proof is an odd thing, and if things aren't clear upfront, they will take steps to make sure that the child won't be in danger if it is true. One has avenues to get help, but one must work within the system and take the steps. I don't know how well they work with foreign social workers, but again, if it is illegal in the country, you might be out of luck. People usually are expected to follow the laws of the country they are in. > Does not release any details about cases, to protect children... even if child is already dead. Again, to protect children. In the case that the child dies, this is truly more to protect what might be innocent parties involved. > Siblings are often split This is not unique to Norway. Sometimes this is the only way to keep kids safe: Other times, this is done while the investigation is going on so that one child doesn't influence the others. > Removed children must speak Norwegian, the mother tongue is suppressed. First, the kids will learn once they get school age - or earlier, if they are in kindergarden. It would be expected if they live here for an extended time because otehrwise they will be singled out. This really is just an effect of living in a foreign country. Finding safe homes with speakers of every language would be very difficult, and again. Better to find safe homes. This isn't something deliberate to harm people. > relatives of children have zero chance to get custody. I don't know for sure, but I doubt this is true and more rumor than anything. It would depend on the situation. In some cases, there would be little chance because the relative wouldn't keep the child removed from the threat (parents), but other cases, it might be possible. > anonymous surveys... Proof, man. Otherwise this is just rumor.