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Such things could have a very negative effect on people whose native language isn't English. I mean, if even native speakers get into troubles so easily what sh

by brakmic 10y ago

Such things could have a very negative effect on people whose native language isn't English. I mean, if even native speakers get into troubles so easily what should I, as a non-native speaker, expect? I maintain a tiny blog and because of possible language barriers I decided to write all of my texts in English. It could've been much easier for me to write in German, of course, but this would exclude so many people. And this was simply unacceptable from my point of view. My command of English isn't very strong but I'd like to paraphrase german philosopher Karl Homann: "The opposite of Moral isn't Immoral but to moralize". I know nothing about the events there but when I read things like "public shaming" or "slut shaming" or "trigger warnings" or "social justice warriors" then I can only follow the "pragmatic solutions" to solve problems of that kind: avoid conferences, avoid any kind of non-technical discussion in English, avoid the community as a whole. Stay on GitHub. Sure, it makes you a bit of a loner but at least you sleep more easily and don't get shocked in the morning when you open your twitter feed. Kind regards,

guitarbill 10y ago
Similar story. I worked really hard on my English accent, something I regret now. If you have a German accent you can speak more directly. Because many know about this cultural difference, people are expecting you to be more direct, and can cope with it. If you have a British accent and you're direct, this doesn't work. Brits think you're rude, but here's the kicker, won't tell you this - they'll just ignore you. For me, luckily I met some Canadians (in the UK) that were nice enough to point this out so I could mitigate it a bit. Still wish I had a strong accent again.
- RonanTheGrey 10y ago
  Interesting story, if you had fostered an American accent you'd have avoided the issue as well. They expect Americans to be abrasive. Behind you 100% on the Brits ignoring you thing. They're very responsible for the perception of what "polite" means and I blame them for so much passive aggression in what is considered "politically correct" speech. If you've ever watched their politics it's a damn joke. They fall all over each other attempting to "out-polite" each other while stabbing each other in the backs. Direct response is unheard of. Then they export this behavior to the rest of the English speaking world as a standard of acceptable behavior because so much of the world irrationally looks up to the UK for the "right" thing to do.
  - mrbester 10y ago
    I take issue with that. What you see with UK politicians is a bizarre mix of the reserve coupled with imported behaviour, sometimes based on the first four chapters of Machiavelli's The Prince but also the confrontational "I'm right you're wrong" superority when talking down to the plebs of the electorate. Most those in Britain who aren't politicians are appalled by this behaviour and see it as rude, which is why we despise them. As it is also rude to go up to someone and say "I despise you" we don't and there is a reliance that they should bloody well know it by our not engaging them, plus we know they wouldn't listen or care anyway, so why bother? The expectation that Americans are abrasive is neatly illustrated by your blaming of a 66 million people in a foreign country for the behaviour of over 300 million people in your own. We also think you're needlessly awkward for writing dates in the wrong order like the rest of the planet, but the tendency is to sigh and cope with your eccentric idiosyncrasies instead of calling you out on it. Perhaps you were hoping a Brit wouldn't respond as you believe we don't do "direct response". We most certainly do, but prefer not to as we find it tedious.
  - angry_octet 10y ago
    Since when are Americans abrasive?! Polite to a fault is more usual. The French otoh, wow.
fernandotakai 10y ago
i have the exact same problem -- a lot of times, i refrain from speaking about specific subjects because i'm afraid i'll be either misunderstood or judged because my culture treats this kind of subject in a different way. even on conferences, i try to only watch the talks and don't interact with people that much -- you never know if a person will take you the wrong way for using the wrong pronoun. (anecdote mode: once, i was speaking to a female colleague and i mispoke her name, because i'm not american and her name was kind of hard to pronounce. she got angry at me and some co-workers even 'shamed' me. after that, i train how to speak everybody's name so that never happens again)
- err4nt 10y ago
  Oh man, I'm sorry you had to go through that, and I am impressed and so happy to hear that this is (and always has been) something you care about so deeply. Don't let bad experiences turn you off from sharing in the future. I'm glad you used your voice here on HN today! I'd rather hear you say my name wrong, than miss out on what you have to say :D
err4nt 10y ago
> I mean, if even native speakers get into troubles so easily what should I, as a non-native speaker, expect? To be honest, I don't think the issue they have with him is one of words, I think it's one of ideas. If people like this disagree with you, they would disapprove of your ideas in German too. I am glad you have chosen to write in English, and I believe your reasoning (wider global audience) is a good one. Your English also seems great, so please don't let stories like this hold you back from sharing in the future!

by brakmic 10y ago

guitarbill 10y ago

Similar story. I worked really hard on my English accent, something I regret now. If you have a German accent you can speak more directly. Because many know about this cultural difference, people are expecting you to be more direct, and can cope with it. If you have a British accent and you're direct, this doesn't work. Brits think you're rude, but here's the kicker, won't tell you this - they'll just ignore you. For me, luckily I met some Canadians (in the UK) that were nice enough to point this out so I could mitigate it a bit. Still wish I had a strong accent again.

RonanTheGrey 10y ago
Interesting story, if you had fostered an American accent you'd have avoided the issue as well. They expect Americans to be abrasive. Behind you 100% on the Brits ignoring you thing. They're very responsible for the perception of what "polite" means and I blame them for so much passive aggression in what is considered "politically correct" speech. If you've ever watched their politics it's a damn joke. They fall all over each other attempting to "out-polite" each other while stabbing each other in the backs. Direct response is unheard of. Then they export this behavior to the rest of the English speaking world as a standard of acceptable behavior because so much of the world irrationally looks up to the UK for the "right" thing to do.
- mrbester 10y ago
  I take issue with that. What you see with UK politicians is a bizarre mix of the reserve coupled with imported behaviour, sometimes based on the first four chapters of Machiavelli's The Prince but also the confrontational "I'm right you're wrong" superority when talking down to the plebs of the electorate. Most those in Britain who aren't politicians are appalled by this behaviour and see it as rude, which is why we despise them. As it is also rude to go up to someone and say "I despise you" we don't and there is a reliance that they should bloody well know it by our not engaging them, plus we know they wouldn't listen or care anyway, so why bother? The expectation that Americans are abrasive is neatly illustrated by your blaming of a 66 million people in a foreign country for the behaviour of over 300 million people in your own. We also think you're needlessly awkward for writing dates in the wrong order like the rest of the planet, but the tendency is to sigh and cope with your eccentric idiosyncrasies instead of calling you out on it. Perhaps you were hoping a Brit wouldn't respond as you believe we don't do "direct response". We most certainly do, but prefer not to as we find it tedious.
- angry_octet 10y ago
  Since when are Americans abrasive?! Polite to a fault is more usual. The French otoh, wow.

fernandotakai 10y ago

i have the exact same problem -- a lot of times, i refrain from speaking about specific subjects because i'm afraid i'll be either misunderstood or judged because my culture treats this kind of subject in a different way. even on conferences, i try to only watch the talks and don't interact with people that much -- you never know if a person will take you the wrong way for using the wrong pronoun. (anecdote mode: once, i was speaking to a female colleague and i mispoke her name, because i'm not american and her name was kind of hard to pronounce. she got angry at me and some co-workers even 'shamed' me. after that, i train how to speak everybody's name so that never happens again)

err4nt 10y ago
Oh man, I'm sorry you had to go through that, and I am impressed and so happy to hear that this is (and always has been) something you care about so deeply. Don't let bad experiences turn you off from sharing in the future. I'm glad you used your voice here on HN today! I'd rather hear you say my name wrong, than miss out on what you have to say :D

err4nt 10y ago

> I mean, if even native speakers get into troubles so easily what should I, as a non-native speaker, expect? To be honest, I don't think the issue they have with him is one of words, I think it's one of ideas. If people like this disagree with you, they would disapprove of your ideas in German too. I am glad you have chosen to write in English, and I believe your reasoning (wider global audience) is a good one. Your English also seems great, so please don't let stories like this hold you back from sharing in the future!