6 ms·

If they announce multitasking for 3rd party apps, it's gonna put a really entertaining new twist on this discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1240171

If they announce multitasking for 3rd party apps, it's gonna put a really entertaining new twist on this discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1240171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1240171 :-)

martythemaniak 17y ago
Obvious Prediction: All the people that have been vehemently defending Apple's lack of multitasking will very smoothly switch to extolling the virtues of this new feature, and how its way better than Android/BB/whatever.
- mcav 17y ago
  People who defend single-tasking do so because multitasking can cause problems w/r/t memory, performance, and battery life. If Apple releases a solution that doesn't suffer from those issues, there's absolutely nothing wrong with "extolling the virtues" of multitasking. My money's on some sort of limited form of multitasking, where apps can launch background processes or something like that.
  - martythemaniak 17y ago
    I don't think you've been following the conversation very well. When people bring up the iPhone's lack of multitasking (I've done this often in the past), most people will not say something reasonable like "Yes, you're right. It's a weakness of the platform that they should address". No, most of the time its a story about how lack of multitasking is GOOD and how the other platforms are bad for offering it, how users are too stupid to use it etc. This is one way in which I can tell apart people that like Apple products (ie, me) and fanboys (ie, those who think Apple products are perfection)
    - gte910h 17y ago
      It's not a pure weakness. It's a design choice. I've done embedded devices that run on limited power situations for years. Multi-tasking sucks battery life out because the processor is constantly waking up to do work. If you've used the G1, you will see quickly what multitasking does to batteries. You as a technical person understand this is a tradeoff. Grandma, or Apple Fanboi #5, doesn't understand this, so they destroy their battery life when playing pandora while doing everything else. I wouldn't be upset if it was a setting in the device, such as notifications are currently, but if it's something apps can turn on without choice from the user, true concurrency can tank the battery use time whether people want to use it or not.
      - theBobMcCormick 17y ago
        I'm not sure I see how killing your battery listening to Pandora is more confusing than killing your battery listening to MP3's/AAC's?
        WarDekar 17y ago
        It's confusing to a non-techie because they don't realize that the most battery draining activity is using the wireless radio- streaming from Pandora (or anywhere) will kill your battery far faster than listening to MP3s in the iPod software will.
    - wtallis 17y ago
      I don't think I've seen many (if any) direct arguments that multitasking is bad. Most of what I've seen amounts to congratulating Apple for not attempting to provide multitasking when they can't do it without seriously compromising other aspects of the user experience. You don't seem to acknowledge that there are tradeoffs involved. Apple's competitors have chosen to offer multitasking at the expense of performance (responsiveness, battery life, etc.). Apple's strategy so far has been to not take that performance hit. It seems like they may be shifting now to investing far more than their competitors into their software development to ensure that their multitasking won't cause an unacceptable performance hit.
    - illumin8 17y ago
      Yes, but to be honest, there are legitimate reasons why they chose not to allow multitasking. You can say it's being a "fanboy" if you want, but I personally don't want to take the tech support call from my grandma where I have to walk her through how to open up a task manager and kill a process that is creating a memory leak. Or ask her to reboot her phone just to fix a problem. Or wonder why she's only getting 3 hours of standby time on a full charge of a battery. These are common issues with past mobile smartphone platforms like WinMo. Apple is smart enough to know that giving people fewer choices is sometimes a better idea than giving them the power to fuck it up royally. When Apple does implement multitasking, you can bet it will probably be done right. Does that make me a fanboy? Maybe, but you're being dishonest if you think the average user knows or even cares about how much memory is available in their smartphone.
      - elblanco 17y ago
        > Yes, but to be honest, there are legitimate reasons why they chose not to allow multitasking And those reasons will magically disappear if they offer multitasking some day? Or will the fanboy crowds switch to "well Apple didn't want to do it until they could build a better version of multitasking, and now they have for <insert esoteric implementation reason>."
        glhaynes 17y ago
        If they offer multitasking, it will be in a well-thought-out, actually-useful way that doesn't cause you to have to walk grandma through Task Manager or listen to her complain about how her battery life is a quarter what it was before the update.
        elblanco 17y ago
        Your satire is refreshing. Especially the part where I said "Or will the fanboy crowds switch to "well Apple didn't want to do it until they could build a better version of multitasking, and now they have for <insert esoteric implementation reason>."" And you responded with pretty much exactly what I said, pretending to be a rabid fanboy. Hilarious!!! HN doesn't usually see much humor at all, it's nice to see some, particularly with such a sophisticated wit! Kudos!
    - ubernostrum 17y ago
      No, most of the time its a story about how lack of multitasking is GOOD and how the other platforms are bad for offering it, how users are too stupid to use it etc. To be perfectly honest, I can only think of two use cases for (third-party application) multitasking on a device like the iPhone: 1. App 1 in background streams/plays music while I use App 2 to do something else. 2. IM client in background popping up messages as they come in. On a device with the form factor and use cases of a typical "smart" phone I just can't think of any other reasonable case where I'd even want, let alone need, multitasking. So count me among the group who'll be happy if something shows up which actually makes multitasking on a device like the iPhone useful, but who don't particularly miss it at the moment because there just isn't that much it'd be good for.
      - elai 17y ago
        Passive GPS tracking apps - Like locale for android which changes your profile settings to put your phone on silent when your at school. Speakerphone only while travelling fast, forward to your home phone while at home, etc.
        DannoHung 17y ago
        Man, that's cool, but it'd drive me crazy.
        theBobMcCormick 17y ago
        Why would it drive you crazy? From what I understand (I've never used it), the Locale app is customizable. You specify what setting you want changed and under what circumstances. I actually use similar but more limited free application on my N1 called "Timeriffic". I have it set to turn off notifications (text messages, new emails, etc) automatically at night and turn them on the next morning. I leave the ringer on though for phone calls, because generally if someone calls me on my cell after 11pm it's probably important. :-)
        tpz 17y ago
  - theBobMcCormick 17y ago
    My money's on some sort of limited form of multitasking, where apps can launch background processes or something like that. In other words, exactly the way Android already does it? :-)
- bmalicoat 17y ago
  Could be like copy & paste, I didn't know what I was missing really. Didn't think I'd use it and I find myself using it a lot now that it's there.
- roc 17y ago
  Obvious Prediction: people who can't see the difference between a claimed feature and a feature that is designed and works well will continue to be mystified by people who reject claimed features and acknowledge only features that are designed and work well.
  - theBobMcCormick 17y ago
    Obvious Prediction: Apple fan boys will continue to claim that any feature on an Apple product is well designed and works and will, sight unseen, claim that any feature on a competing product is not well designed and doesn't work. :-) Edit: I should have mentioned the other obvious prediction: Get downvoted to oblivion by Apple fan boys for daring to critique the cult of Apple. :-(
- wtallis 17y ago
  And as long as the multitasking doesn't introduce undue complexity or any new lag into the UI, there's nothing wrong or hypocritical about that. It's clear from the range of smartphones out there that multitasking is hard to get right. Palm seems to have the best UI for multitasking, but their performance is far below Apple standards. Multitasking is also somewhat of a long-tail feature. The mainstream, non-nerd majority is what Apple's been targeting with the iPhone and the iPad, and to them the lack of multitasking is at worst a nuisance that is usually offset by the platform's other strengths. The nerds who really badly want multitasking are a significant and vocal minority, but still a minority. Apple's established a clear pattern of not releasing a feature until it is done to their satisfaction (see copy and paste), and this feature is easy to get wrong and hard to get right, and it's not a dealbreaker for too much of their market, so it stands to reason that it would be a long time coming. So long as whatever multitasking system Apple releases raises the bar for ease of use, the wait is justified.
- jsz0 17y ago
  I don't see those as being incompatible positions. Lots of people don't like the BB/WinMo/Android style of multi-tasking. My single biggest frustration with my Android phone is every few days it slows down to a crawl which reminds me to go open Advanced Task Killer and kill off all my background tasks. Some apps run in the background, some quit. Some apps are impossible to quit once started without a third party task manager installed. The GUI for switching apps is a simple alt-tab style switcher. Even something a simple as having thumbnails of the active windows or a taskbar/dock would be a big improvement.
  - theBobMcCormick 17y ago
    Task Killers are a waste of time. http://geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-with-android/ http://geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-wi...
- DannoHung 17y ago
  Personally, I just dislike the existing phone UI's for multitasking. If they can make that awesome and battery life doesn't take a nose dive, I'm all for it.

martythemaniak 17y ago

Obvious Prediction: All the people that have been vehemently defending Apple's lack of multitasking will very smoothly switch to extolling the virtues of this new feature, and how its way better than Android/BB/whatever.

mcav 17y ago
People who defend single-tasking do so because multitasking can cause problems w/r/t memory, performance, and battery life. If Apple releases a solution that doesn't suffer from those issues, there's absolutely nothing wrong with "extolling the virtues" of multitasking. My money's on some sort of limited form of multitasking, where apps can launch background processes or something like that.
- martythemaniak 17y ago
  I don't think you've been following the conversation very well. When people bring up the iPhone's lack of multitasking (I've done this often in the past), most people will not say something reasonable like "Yes, you're right. It's a weakness of the platform that they should address". No, most of the time its a story about how lack of multitasking is GOOD and how the other platforms are bad for offering it, how users are too stupid to use it etc. This is one way in which I can tell apart people that like Apple products (ie, me) and fanboys (ie, those who think Apple products are perfection)
  - gte910h 17y ago
    It's not a pure weakness. It's a design choice. I've done embedded devices that run on limited power situations for years. Multi-tasking sucks battery life out because the processor is constantly waking up to do work. If you've used the G1, you will see quickly what multitasking does to batteries. You as a technical person understand this is a tradeoff. Grandma, or Apple Fanboi #5, doesn't understand this, so they destroy their battery life when playing pandora while doing everything else. I wouldn't be upset if it was a setting in the device, such as notifications are currently, but if it's something apps can turn on without choice from the user, true concurrency can tank the battery use time whether people want to use it or not.
    - theBobMcCormick 17y ago
      I'm not sure I see how killing your battery listening to Pandora is more confusing than killing your battery listening to MP3's/AAC's?
      - WarDekar 17y ago
        It's confusing to a non-techie because they don't realize that the most battery draining activity is using the wireless radio- streaming from Pandora (or anywhere) will kill your battery far faster than listening to MP3s in the iPod software will.
  - wtallis 17y ago
    I don't think I've seen many (if any) direct arguments that multitasking is bad. Most of what I've seen amounts to congratulating Apple for not attempting to provide multitasking when they can't do it without seriously compromising other aspects of the user experience. You don't seem to acknowledge that there are tradeoffs involved. Apple's competitors have chosen to offer multitasking at the expense of performance (responsiveness, battery life, etc.). Apple's strategy so far has been to not take that performance hit. It seems like they may be shifting now to investing far more than their competitors into their software development to ensure that their multitasking won't cause an unacceptable performance hit.
  - illumin8 17y ago
    Yes, but to be honest, there are legitimate reasons why they chose not to allow multitasking. You can say it's being a "fanboy" if you want, but I personally don't want to take the tech support call from my grandma where I have to walk her through how to open up a task manager and kill a process that is creating a memory leak. Or ask her to reboot her phone just to fix a problem. Or wonder why she's only getting 3 hours of standby time on a full charge of a battery. These are common issues with past mobile smartphone platforms like WinMo. Apple is smart enough to know that giving people fewer choices is sometimes a better idea than giving them the power to fuck it up royally. When Apple does implement multitasking, you can bet it will probably be done right. Does that make me a fanboy? Maybe, but you're being dishonest if you think the average user knows or even cares about how much memory is available in their smartphone.
    - elblanco 17y ago
      > Yes, but to be honest, there are legitimate reasons why they chose not to allow multitasking And those reasons will magically disappear if they offer multitasking some day? Or will the fanboy crowds switch to "well Apple didn't want to do it until they could build a better version of multitasking, and now they have for <insert esoteric implementation reason>."
      - glhaynes 17y ago
        If they offer multitasking, it will be in a well-thought-out, actually-useful way that doesn't cause you to have to walk grandma through Task Manager or listen to her complain about how her battery life is a quarter what it was before the update.
        elblanco 17y ago
        Your satire is refreshing. Especially the part where I said "Or will the fanboy crowds switch to "well Apple didn't want to do it until they could build a better version of multitasking, and now they have for <insert esoteric implementation reason>."" And you responded with pretty much exactly what I said, pretending to be a rabid fanboy. Hilarious!!! HN doesn't usually see much humor at all, it's nice to see some, particularly with such a sophisticated wit! Kudos!
  - ubernostrum 17y ago
    No, most of the time its a story about how lack of multitasking is GOOD and how the other platforms are bad for offering it, how users are too stupid to use it etc. To be perfectly honest, I can only think of two use cases for (third-party application) multitasking on a device like the iPhone: 1. App 1 in background streams/plays music while I use App 2 to do something else. 2. IM client in background popping up messages as they come in. On a device with the form factor and use cases of a typical "smart" phone I just can't think of any other reasonable case where I'd even want, let alone need, multitasking. So count me among the group who'll be happy if something shows up which actually makes multitasking on a device like the iPhone useful, but who don't particularly miss it at the moment because there just isn't that much it'd be good for.
    - elai 17y ago
      Passive GPS tracking apps - Like locale for android which changes your profile settings to put your phone on silent when your at school. Speakerphone only while travelling fast, forward to your home phone while at home, etc.
      - DannoHung 17y ago
        Man, that's cool, but it'd drive me crazy.
        theBobMcCormick 17y ago
        Why would it drive you crazy? From what I understand (I've never used it), the Locale app is customizable. You specify what setting you want changed and under what circumstances. I actually use similar but more limited free application on my N1 called "Timeriffic". I have it set to turn off notifications (text messages, new emails, etc) automatically at night and turn them on the next morning. I leave the ringer on though for phone calls, because generally if someone calls me on my cell after 11pm it's probably important. :-)
        tpz 17y ago
- theBobMcCormick 17y ago
  My money's on some sort of limited form of multitasking, where apps can launch background processes or something like that. In other words, exactly the way Android already does it? :-)
bmalicoat 17y ago
Could be like copy & paste, I didn't know what I was missing really. Didn't think I'd use it and I find myself using it a lot now that it's there.
roc 17y ago
Obvious Prediction: people who can't see the difference between a claimed feature and a feature that is designed and works well will continue to be mystified by people who reject claimed features and acknowledge only features that are designed and work well.
- theBobMcCormick 17y ago
  Obvious Prediction: Apple fan boys will continue to claim that any feature on an Apple product is well designed and works and will, sight unseen, claim that any feature on a competing product is not well designed and doesn't work. :-) Edit: I should have mentioned the other obvious prediction: Get downvoted to oblivion by Apple fan boys for daring to critique the cult of Apple. :-(
wtallis 17y ago
And as long as the multitasking doesn't introduce undue complexity or any new lag into the UI, there's nothing wrong or hypocritical about that. It's clear from the range of smartphones out there that multitasking is hard to get right. Palm seems to have the best UI for multitasking, but their performance is far below Apple standards. Multitasking is also somewhat of a long-tail feature. The mainstream, non-nerd majority is what Apple's been targeting with the iPhone and the iPad, and to them the lack of multitasking is at worst a nuisance that is usually offset by the platform's other strengths. The nerds who really badly want multitasking are a significant and vocal minority, but still a minority. Apple's established a clear pattern of not releasing a feature until it is done to their satisfaction (see copy and paste), and this feature is easy to get wrong and hard to get right, and it's not a dealbreaker for too much of their market, so it stands to reason that it would be a long time coming. So long as whatever multitasking system Apple releases raises the bar for ease of use, the wait is justified.
jsz0 17y ago
I don't see those as being incompatible positions. Lots of people don't like the BB/WinMo/Android style of multi-tasking. My single biggest frustration with my Android phone is every few days it slows down to a crawl which reminds me to go open Advanced Task Killer and kill off all my background tasks. Some apps run in the background, some quit. Some apps are impossible to quit once started without a third party task manager installed. The GUI for switching apps is a simple alt-tab style switcher. Even something a simple as having thumbnails of the active windows or a taskbar/dock would be a big improvement.
- theBobMcCormick 17y ago
  Task Killers are a waste of time. http://geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-with-android/ http://geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-wi...
DannoHung 17y ago
Personally, I just dislike the existing phone UI's for multitasking. If they can make that awesome and battery life doesn't take a nose dive, I'm all for it.