6 ms·

Maybe focus on the actual meat of the argument rather than the plate it's served on and you'll enjoy your meal more.

inopinatus 10y ago
Ok sure. In that case, I'll point out that being "a common practice going back hundreds of years" should lead you to question something, not accept it. It reminds me of the time I recommended (to the Unix team at a major financial institution) that they use ssh rather than telnet, and being rebuffed with "that's the way we've always done it". In this case, since you want to be specific, the practice of defaulting to "he" correlates with hundreds of years of treating women as chattels, with economic consequences and imbalances that persist today, and continue to be reinforced through structural, unconscious, and explicit biases, and that we'd all be better off without. The notion that language should reflect thought is as old as Plato.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  I know languages where literally every word is gendered, and languages where almost nothing is gendered and haven ever seen any correlation to how women are treated.
- mpweiher 10y ago
  > the practice of defaulting to "he" correlates with hundreds of years of treating women as chattels Er, no. It just means it is the unmarked/unremarkable case corresponding to males being generally worth less and discardable ("save the women"...). It is also a quirk of some of our languages that the gender-neutral pronouns are considered derogatory when applied to people. German and English have this problem ("it", "es"), whereas French "on" seems to be okay. So the language requires gendering when no gender is semantically intended. In German, every noun is gendered. So "person" is "she", whereas "human" is "he", "Civilisation" and "Society" are both "she", "state" is "he". "Lampshade" is "he" whereas "Lamp" is she, etc. You can try to read deep meaning into these quirks, or you can just not. TL;DR: Not only are you reading way to much into linguistic quirks, your analysis is also at best shaky.
  - madeofpalk 10y ago
    But the way that sentence would normally be said where I'm from (Australia) would be "as long as they give a good talk" - no need to use specifics when you're talking about a specific person. I find it disjoining when I hear otherwise. I also find it weird that German and Spanish inject gender into every noun, although I do get that there's little meaning behind it (from the little quizzing I've given speakers of each)
    - mpweiher 10y ago
      > But the way that sentence would normally be said where I'm from (Australia) would be "as long as they give a good talk" Yes, language evolves. Currently, this is almost certainly grammatically incorrect, "they" being the third person plural and (not shown here, but assumed) the speaker being singular. "They" is being pressed into service as the non-derogatory, gender-neutral third person singular that's missing in english. So "they" has started to mean both third person plural and unspecified third person singular. The previous solution was that "he" meant both "male" and "unspecified". So previously women got their own pronoun, men didn't, now we have a harder time telling whether there's a single person or a group. Both solutions have their quirks, both work at some level.
      - madeofpalk 10y ago
        I pondered this exact thing, but came to the thought that you actually are talking about multiple people. "As long as they give a good talk" - you're not talking about one specific person but in fact a general population of speakers.
        mpweiher 10y ago
        Original was: "problems a speaker at a conference might have, as long as he gives a good talk/presentation." The pronoun refers to "speaker", singular, yet indefinite, we don't necessarily know who it is. Let's substitute "they: "problems a speaker at a conference might have, as long as they give a good talk/presentation." Yep, works for me, but I think the "they" definitely talks about about that single (if indefinite) speaker. Yet we use the plural of the verb ("give"), so the sentence is confused, grammatically. I wonder what will give as this evolves, whether "they gives" becomes acceptable or we simple leave "they" grammatically plural even when it is semantically singular. Language. Fun times!

Ok sure. In that case, I'll point out that being "a common practice going back hundreds of years" should lead you to question something, not accept it. It reminds me of the time I recommended (to the Unix team at a major financial institution) that they use ssh rather than telnet, and being rebuffed with "that's the way we've always done it". In this case, since you want to be specific, the practice of defaulting to "he" correlates with hundreds of years of treating women as chattels, with economic consequences and imbalances that persist today, and continue to be reinforced through structural, unconscious, and explicit biases, and that we'd all be better off without. The notion that language should reflect thought is as old as Plato.

kalleboo 10y ago
I know languages where literally every word is gendered, and languages where almost nothing is gendered and haven ever seen any correlation to how women are treated.
mpweiher 10y ago
> the practice of defaulting to "he" correlates with hundreds of years of treating women as chattels Er, no. It just means it is the unmarked/unremarkable case corresponding to males being generally worth less and discardable ("save the women"...). It is also a quirk of some of our languages that the gender-neutral pronouns are considered derogatory when applied to people. German and English have this problem ("it", "es"), whereas French "on" seems to be okay. So the language requires gendering when no gender is semantically intended. In German, every noun is gendered. So "person" is "she", whereas "human" is "he", "Civilisation" and "Society" are both "she", "state" is "he". "Lampshade" is "he" whereas "Lamp" is she, etc. You can try to read deep meaning into these quirks, or you can just not. TL;DR: Not only are you reading way to much into linguistic quirks, your analysis is also at best shaky.
- madeofpalk 10y ago
  But the way that sentence would normally be said where I'm from (Australia) would be "as long as they give a good talk" - no need to use specifics when you're talking about a specific person. I find it disjoining when I hear otherwise. I also find it weird that German and Spanish inject gender into every noun, although I do get that there's little meaning behind it (from the little quizzing I've given speakers of each)
  - mpweiher 10y ago
    > But the way that sentence would normally be said where I'm from (Australia) would be "as long as they give a good talk" Yes, language evolves. Currently, this is almost certainly grammatically incorrect, "they" being the third person plural and (not shown here, but assumed) the speaker being singular. "They" is being pressed into service as the non-derogatory, gender-neutral third person singular that's missing in english. So "they" has started to mean both third person plural and unspecified third person singular. The previous solution was that "he" meant both "male" and "unspecified". So previously women got their own pronoun, men didn't, now we have a harder time telling whether there's a single person or a group. Both solutions have their quirks, both work at some level.
    - madeofpalk 10y ago
      I pondered this exact thing, but came to the thought that you actually are talking about multiple people. "As long as they give a good talk" - you're not talking about one specific person but in fact a general population of speakers.
      - mpweiher 10y ago
        Original was: "problems a speaker at a conference might have, as long as he gives a good talk/presentation." The pronoun refers to "speaker", singular, yet indefinite, we don't necessarily know who it is. Let's substitute "they: "problems a speaker at a conference might have, as long as they give a good talk/presentation." Yep, works for me, but I think the "they" definitely talks about about that single (if indefinite) speaker. Yet we use the plural of the verb ("give"), so the sentence is confused, grammatically. I wonder what will give as this evolves, whether "they gives" becomes acceptable or we simple leave "they" grammatically plural even when it is semantically singular. Language. Fun times!