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I feel like we have a bunch of trigger-happy teenagers viewing the world through a video-game-like HUD with a joystick, just itching to light something up. Nob

I feel like we have a bunch of trigger-happy teenagers viewing the world through a video-game-like HUD with a joystick, just itching to light something up. Nobody should support this. Also, imagine being a child with an Apache circling your town waiting to dispense this sort of justice. You'd probably become a terrorist, wouldn't you?

deleted 17y ago
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yesimahuman 17y ago
That video was incredibly eye-opening. Everyone needs to see it just to know what war is like in the 21st century. You can't just ignore this shit. As for the itching part, I felt at first he was threatened, and I could sense a bit of fear in his voice that the RPG was going to be aimed at him (not sure what the chances are of that hitting the copter though), and I felt like I could understand that reaction were I in a similar position...but then it was pretty clear he just wanted to light it up. I guess my take on all of this is that these kids are over there in a war zone. Their friends die. The enemy is real and they have been ordered to kill him. You can't blame the kids, but it's so hard to hear their voices knowing they were once living a life like you are, away from danger and war. To most of us, this is just a capture of a video game. It's crazy shit.
- deleted 17y ago
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- elblanco 17y ago
  If you notice, at no time does anybody look at the helicopter. That's how far away they were from the action, the people on the ground weren't even aware of the presence of the aircraft.
  - rosser 17y ago
    There's a lag of 2-3 seconds between the sounds of gunfire on the video and the rounds striking their targets. The AH-64's chain gun has a muzzle velocity of around 2600 ft/s, so the choppers are at least a mile away.
    - elblanco 17y ago
      I was just doing some back of the envelope calculations as well and concluded about the same thing.
    - yesimahuman 17y ago
      Wow, that's incredible. Unfortunately, part of me is in complete awe of the power of our country. I can see why so many young kids want to be apart of this. These kids have so much power and responsibility.
      - patrickk 17y ago
        I think something is seriously wrong somewhere when a kid can have that kind of firepower under his thumb but not be able to legally buy a beer
- sunchild 17y ago
  A sidenote to yours: War prior to the 21st century was equally horrible, if not more so, in terms of scale.
NathanKP 17y ago
I am going to play devil's advocate for a moment. I obviously don't condone the killing in this movie, but just for a moment think about the young kids who were in that helicopter, doing the shooting and all the shit they have to face now. Think about all the haters that are going to be calling down evil on them over the internet and news. Think about how bad they must feel knowing that they killed innocent people when they thought they were killing the enemy. From their point of view they are in a helicopter, scared, and afraid that someone is going to shoot a RPG at them. You can't seriously expect them to notice the kids or the difference between a camera and a weapon. Sure they jumped the gun, they killed innocent civilians, but it was a product of the environment and training they received. It happened because America made those kids soldiers and put them in that situation, with a deadly weapon to control. Don't blame them personally. What does need to be blamed, on the other hand, is the fact that this video was kept secret and that the world was lied to. That is disgusting.
- deleted 17y ago
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- aerique 17y ago
  That's not playing the devil's advocate. It's bringing a sensible post to a forum filled with emo reactions.
- mrtron 17y ago
  I don't know that anyone is blaming the individuals here. The individual on the gun repeatedly got approval to engage and wikileaks posted the rules of engagement as well as the video. I agree about the system put them into the situation and hid this video being disgusting.
  - NathanKP 17y ago
    I don't know that anyone is blaming the individuals here. Yes fortunately there isn't too much of that in this particular thread. But if you look at other online discussions going on right now, you'll see plenty of hateful comments of all sorts.
- 17y ago
mrtron 17y ago
Yes, I would become a 'terrorist' if that means fighting with any means necessary. In Iraq that means IED's. A childhood friend of mine just returned from Afghanistan missing an arm and leg from an IED. He understands why they use those tactics given the firepower mismatch. I would also like to add to your point that there is no duality between supporting the troops and being against events like this. You can do both.
tsally 17y ago
I feel like we have a bunch of trigger-happy teenagers viewing the world through a video-game-like HUD with a joystick, just itching to light something up. Your analysis strikes me as a bit glib. There are two critical pieces to this issue and I think it is important we distinguish between the two. The first part (which is what you are trying to get at) is that the prospect of warfare being conducted through a video-game like interface is scary and feels wrong. I agree and I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach just thinking about it. Imagine soldiers driving to work in the morning from their homes in the suburbs, putting in a 9-5 day piloting a drone killing insurgents, and then going home to their families in time for dinner. Very scary. However, the second part is what you miss. These military personnel are kids. Kids that we ask to conduct a large scale invasion and then engage in the near-impossible task of nation building. As Thomas Barnett says, the same 19 year old just can't do it all. These kids should have been out of Iraq after we captured Saddam. They aren't psychologically equipped to deal with a country post-invasion. This video is a perfect example of that. Notice how the kid mistakes a camera for a weapon and is extremely jumpy when he is trying to figure out whether he is being shot at. He's never been trained to deal with this kind of situation (urban warfare, enemies without uniforms, civilians intermixed with soldiers) and it's criminal we force teenagers make these kinds of decisions every day. All of that said, clearly bad decisions were made in this video. I'm not disputing that. But there are two crimes in this video.
- waterlesscloud 17y ago
  Why is everyone calling these soldiers kids? There's a good chance the pilots at least are older than most of the people reading this forum.
  - tsally 17y ago
    There's a good chance the pilots at least are older than most of the people reading this forum. Do you have a basis for your opinion, or are you just making things up? Actually, I already know the answer to that question. The average age of all active duty military is 28. 37% of the Marine Corps is between the ages of 17 and 21 [1]. And when you remove all the higher ranking officers (who are not very likely to be gunning for an Apache), the average age gets even lower. Based on this poll [2], it appears the average age of HN is between 21 and 35. The data from the HN survey appears to have been taken down; that would give a much better answer. Regardless, your wrong in saying the average reader of this forum is probably younger than the military personal flying the helicopter. At best you can say it's unclear. [1] http://www.slideshare.net/pastinson/us-military-active-duty-demographic-profile-presentation http://www.slideshare.net/pastinson/us-military-active-duty-... [2] http://news.ycombinator.net/item?id=800158 http://news.ycombinator.net/item?id=800158 EDIT: For the record, the parent post contains 100% factually incorrect information and this post contains a refutation with cited facts. Currently the voting split is 9/-1. This is an emotional issue, but let's try and not be so reactionary. EDIT2: The parent is factually correct because waterlesscloud is referring to the age of the pilot, whereas I thought we were talking about the gunner (the person whose actions are in question). I also assumed the marines were involved, which is also incorrect. Sorry for the false accusation.
Qz 17y ago
I wonder how likely you would be to think that if it the video games that simulate this exact kind of thing didn't exist -- do we think they're playing a video game because of the video games they've played, or do we think they're playing video games because of the video games we've played?
- papachito 17y ago
  He's talking like a gamer in that video.
  - Qz 17y ago
    My point is: is that what the person heard on the video experiences, or an association we're making as viewers based on our experience of video games? I mean, the only experience I have that comes close to whats on that video is from playing Call of Duty 4 (which has sequences that look almost exactly like the footage). So when I see that video, I think, wow that looks a lot like a video game I've played, and when we hear how they talk in the video, it sounds a lot like how people talk when they're playing the video game. So we make that association because it's most accurate association we can make, based on the fact that we've never actually been in combat. On top of that, the video games are designed to make us feel like we are in that position, so it makes sense that people playing those games might talk like people who actually are in that position. I'm not sure that someone who has been in combat would make the same association. They could very well say "He's talking like a soldier in that video."
    - patrickk 17y ago
      Along the same lines: http://www.pyrosoft.co.uk/blog/2007/11/04/army-fly-uav-spy-plane-with-xbox-360-controller/ http://www.pyrosoft.co.uk/blog/2007/11/04/army-fly-uav-spy-p... I bet the guys at Microsoft never thought their controllers would some day be used to scout/kill for real

deleted 17y ago

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yesimahuman 17y ago

That video was incredibly eye-opening. Everyone needs to see it just to know what war is like in the 21st century. You can't just ignore this shit. As for the itching part, I felt at first he was threatened, and I could sense a bit of fear in his voice that the RPG was going to be aimed at him (not sure what the chances are of that hitting the copter though), and I felt like I could understand that reaction were I in a similar position...but then it was pretty clear he just wanted to light it up. I guess my take on all of this is that these kids are over there in a war zone. Their friends die. The enemy is real and they have been ordered to kill him. You can't blame the kids, but it's so hard to hear their voices knowing they were once living a life like you are, away from danger and war. To most of us, this is just a capture of a video game. It's crazy shit.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
elblanco 17y ago
If you notice, at no time does anybody look at the helicopter. That's how far away they were from the action, the people on the ground weren't even aware of the presence of the aircraft.
- rosser 17y ago
  There's a lag of 2-3 seconds between the sounds of gunfire on the video and the rounds striking their targets. The AH-64's chain gun has a muzzle velocity of around 2600 ft/s, so the choppers are at least a mile away.
  - elblanco 17y ago
    I was just doing some back of the envelope calculations as well and concluded about the same thing.
  - yesimahuman 17y ago
    Wow, that's incredible. Unfortunately, part of me is in complete awe of the power of our country. I can see why so many young kids want to be apart of this. These kids have so much power and responsibility.
    - patrickk 17y ago
      I think something is seriously wrong somewhere when a kid can have that kind of firepower under his thumb but not be able to legally buy a beer
sunchild 17y ago
A sidenote to yours: War prior to the 21st century was equally horrible, if not more so, in terms of scale.

NathanKP 17y ago

I am going to play devil's advocate for a moment. I obviously don't condone the killing in this movie, but just for a moment think about the young kids who were in that helicopter, doing the shooting and all the shit they have to face now. Think about all the haters that are going to be calling down evil on them over the internet and news. Think about how bad they must feel knowing that they killed innocent people when they thought they were killing the enemy. From their point of view they are in a helicopter, scared, and afraid that someone is going to shoot a RPG at them. You can't seriously expect them to notice the kids or the difference between a camera and a weapon. Sure they jumped the gun, they killed innocent civilians, but it was a product of the environment and training they received. It happened because America made those kids soldiers and put them in that situation, with a deadly weapon to control. Don't blame them personally. What does need to be blamed, on the other hand, is the fact that this video was kept secret and that the world was lied to. That is disgusting.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
aerique 17y ago
That's not playing the devil's advocate. It's bringing a sensible post to a forum filled with emo reactions.
mrtron 17y ago
I don't know that anyone is blaming the individuals here. The individual on the gun repeatedly got approval to engage and wikileaks posted the rules of engagement as well as the video. I agree about the system put them into the situation and hid this video being disgusting.
- NathanKP 17y ago
  I don't know that anyone is blaming the individuals here. Yes fortunately there isn't too much of that in this particular thread. But if you look at other online discussions going on right now, you'll see plenty of hateful comments of all sorts.
17y ago

mrtron 17y ago

Yes, I would become a 'terrorist' if that means fighting with any means necessary. In Iraq that means IED's. A childhood friend of mine just returned from Afghanistan missing an arm and leg from an IED. He understands why they use those tactics given the firepower mismatch. I would also like to add to your point that there is no duality between supporting the troops and being against events like this. You can do both.

tsally 17y ago

I feel like we have a bunch of trigger-happy teenagers viewing the world through a video-game-like HUD with a joystick, just itching to light something up. Your analysis strikes me as a bit glib. There are two critical pieces to this issue and I think it is important we distinguish between the two. The first part (which is what you are trying to get at) is that the prospect of warfare being conducted through a video-game like interface is scary and feels wrong. I agree and I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach just thinking about it. Imagine soldiers driving to work in the morning from their homes in the suburbs, putting in a 9-5 day piloting a drone killing insurgents, and then going home to their families in time for dinner. Very scary. However, the second part is what you miss. These military personnel are kids. Kids that we ask to conduct a large scale invasion and then engage in the near-impossible task of nation building. As Thomas Barnett says, the same 19 year old just can't do it all. These kids should have been out of Iraq after we captured Saddam. They aren't psychologically equipped to deal with a country post-invasion. This video is a perfect example of that. Notice how the kid mistakes a camera for a weapon and is extremely jumpy when he is trying to figure out whether he is being shot at. He's never been trained to deal with this kind of situation (urban warfare, enemies without uniforms, civilians intermixed with soldiers) and it's criminal we force teenagers make these kinds of decisions every day. All of that said, clearly bad decisions were made in this video. I'm not disputing that. But there are two crimes in this video.

waterlesscloud 17y ago
Why is everyone calling these soldiers kids? There's a good chance the pilots at least are older than most of the people reading this forum.
- tsally 17y ago
  There's a good chance the pilots at least are older than most of the people reading this forum. Do you have a basis for your opinion, or are you just making things up? Actually, I already know the answer to that question. The average age of all active duty military is 28. 37% of the Marine Corps is between the ages of 17 and 21 [1]. And when you remove all the higher ranking officers (who are not very likely to be gunning for an Apache), the average age gets even lower. Based on this poll [2], it appears the average age of HN is between 21 and 35. The data from the HN survey appears to have been taken down; that would give a much better answer. Regardless, your wrong in saying the average reader of this forum is probably younger than the military personal flying the helicopter. At best you can say it's unclear. [1] http://www.slideshare.net/pastinson/us-military-active-duty-demographic-profile-presentation http://www.slideshare.net/pastinson/us-military-active-duty-... [2] http://news.ycombinator.net/item?id=800158 http://news.ycombinator.net/item?id=800158 EDIT: For the record, the parent post contains 100% factually incorrect information and this post contains a refutation with cited facts. Currently the voting split is 9/-1. This is an emotional issue, but let's try and not be so reactionary. EDIT2: The parent is factually correct because waterlesscloud is referring to the age of the pilot, whereas I thought we were talking about the gunner (the person whose actions are in question). I also assumed the marines were involved, which is also incorrect. Sorry for the false accusation.

Qz 17y ago

I wonder how likely you would be to think that if it the video games that simulate this exact kind of thing didn't exist -- do we think they're playing a video game because of the video games they've played, or do we think they're playing video games because of the video games we've played?

papachito 17y ago
He's talking like a gamer in that video.
- Qz 17y ago
  My point is: is that what the person heard on the video experiences, or an association we're making as viewers based on our experience of video games? I mean, the only experience I have that comes close to whats on that video is from playing Call of Duty 4 (which has sequences that look almost exactly like the footage). So when I see that video, I think, wow that looks a lot like a video game I've played, and when we hear how they talk in the video, it sounds a lot like how people talk when they're playing the video game. So we make that association because it's most accurate association we can make, based on the fact that we've never actually been in combat. On top of that, the video games are designed to make us feel like we are in that position, so it makes sense that people playing those games might talk like people who actually are in that position. I'm not sure that someone who has been in combat would make the same association. They could very well say "He's talking like a soldier in that video."
  - patrickk 17y ago
    Along the same lines: http://www.pyrosoft.co.uk/blog/2007/11/04/army-fly-uav-spy-plane-with-xbox-360-controller/ http://www.pyrosoft.co.uk/blog/2007/11/04/army-fly-uav-spy-p... I bet the guys at Microsoft never thought their controllers would some day be used to scout/kill for real