5 ms·

HSBC got caught, and nobody went to prison. The fine was just $1.9 billion. Our prosecutors are a f*ing joke.

a3n 10y ago
If we wanted to put a dent in this kind of thing, we'd put people in jail, and fine individuals. But we don't do that, so we must not want to stop it. I suppose the fines are just our cut.
rhizome 10y ago
There's a saying that crime is defined as the behavior of the losers in the class war. HSBC is not a member of that group.
- allendoerfer 10y ago
  True, still I think - at least where I live, crimes of said losers are sometimes not punished hard enough compared to crimes "winners" commit. If you want to spend 5 years in a German prison, you can either steal money from your company [0] or literally kill a guy (if you did not intend to do so) [1]. The first one is a danger to the system, the second one probably had a difficult childhood. Still I think life should be valued much, much higher than money. The US might have the opposite problem. [0] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p2242 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st... [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1806 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st...
  - imaginenore 10y ago
    I disagree about the money. Money is basically a measurement for human labor. Money is human life time. We should sentence people proportionally to how much they steal, which should really cut down multimillion dollar thefts. For example in California grand theft (misdemeanor) is 1 year max in county jail (not even a prison), and 4 additional years if you stole more than $3.2 million. So in the very worst case you get 5 years. How long does it take you to make $3.2M? For the average US person with the median income of $37,679 before taxes it will take 85 years, not counting the taxes.
    - allendoerfer 10y ago
      I think crimes like this should definitely be punished with hefty fines and some years in prison, so even the super rich care about them. But it is just money. Money is not lifetime. Money is just a number central banks can control. You can insure yourself against losing it. It cannot even be lost, it is just somewhere else. The criminal can repay it. Time working for money is not lost. Time being dead, because you got murdered, is lost. Your mother or your children will not cry, because somebody took some money from you. I would even go further: Yeah, making $3,2M will take me a while, but I guess I would prefer to have to regain $3,2M than to cope with psychological or physiological damages of a really violent crime. If I were to lose $3,2M, it would partially be my fault, because clearly my business was lacking some control mechanisms. If two guys come after you from behind, there is really nothing you could have done. Edit: This is another submission currently at the frontpage: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12421687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12421687
      - Trill-I-Am 10y ago
        An NPR story on an explosion at an apartment building in Silver Spring talked about how many of the immigrants living there kept their life savings in cash, which was destroyed. Money can be lost. http://www.npr.org/2016/08/28/491699553/silver-spring-explosion-highlights-tenous-immigrant-journey-of-upward-mobility http://www.npr.org/2016/08/28/491699553/silver-spring-explos...
        allendoerfer 10y ago
        I think for most people in the developed world, it is much easier to prevent that than losing your life. Also the money in a sense is somewhere else now, since there is less of it, everyone else's money is now worth very slightly more. Still a good example.
      - imaginenore 10y ago
        Money is life time. People exchange their life time for money. How money is introduced into the economy is a red herring. The rest of your argument is red herring as well, you just switched to talking about violent crime, which has nothing to do with our conversation. I was talking specificzlly about misdemeanor theft, not robbery or felony theft.

a3n 10y ago

If we wanted to put a dent in this kind of thing, we'd put people in jail, and fine individuals. But we don't do that, so we must not want to stop it. I suppose the fines are just our cut.

rhizome 10y ago

There's a saying that crime is defined as the behavior of the losers in the class war. HSBC is not a member of that group.

allendoerfer 10y ago
True, still I think - at least where I live, crimes of said losers are sometimes not punished hard enough compared to crimes "winners" commit. If you want to spend 5 years in a German prison, you can either steal money from your company [0] or literally kill a guy (if you did not intend to do so) [1]. The first one is a danger to the system, the second one probably had a difficult childhood. Still I think life should be valued much, much higher than money. The US might have the opposite problem. [0] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p2242 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st... [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1806 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st...
- imaginenore 10y ago
  I disagree about the money. Money is basically a measurement for human labor. Money is human life time. We should sentence people proportionally to how much they steal, which should really cut down multimillion dollar thefts. For example in California grand theft (misdemeanor) is 1 year max in county jail (not even a prison), and 4 additional years if you stole more than $3.2 million. So in the very worst case you get 5 years. How long does it take you to make $3.2M? For the average US person with the median income of $37,679 before taxes it will take 85 years, not counting the taxes.
  - allendoerfer 10y ago
    I think crimes like this should definitely be punished with hefty fines and some years in prison, so even the super rich care about them. But it is just money. Money is not lifetime. Money is just a number central banks can control. You can insure yourself against losing it. It cannot even be lost, it is just somewhere else. The criminal can repay it. Time working for money is not lost. Time being dead, because you got murdered, is lost. Your mother or your children will not cry, because somebody took some money from you. I would even go further: Yeah, making $3,2M will take me a while, but I guess I would prefer to have to regain $3,2M than to cope with psychological or physiological damages of a really violent crime. If I were to lose $3,2M, it would partially be my fault, because clearly my business was lacking some control mechanisms. If two guys come after you from behind, there is really nothing you could have done. Edit: This is another submission currently at the frontpage: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12421687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12421687
    - Trill-I-Am 10y ago
      An NPR story on an explosion at an apartment building in Silver Spring talked about how many of the immigrants living there kept their life savings in cash, which was destroyed. Money can be lost. http://www.npr.org/2016/08/28/491699553/silver-spring-explosion-highlights-tenous-immigrant-journey-of-upward-mobility http://www.npr.org/2016/08/28/491699553/silver-spring-explos...
      - allendoerfer 10y ago
        I think for most people in the developed world, it is much easier to prevent that than losing your life. Also the money in a sense is somewhere else now, since there is less of it, everyone else's money is now worth very slightly more. Still a good example.
    - imaginenore 10y ago
      Money is life time. People exchange their life time for money. How money is introduced into the economy is a red herring. The rest of your argument is red herring as well, you just switched to talking about violent crime, which has nothing to do with our conversation. I was talking specificzlly about misdemeanor theft, not robbery or felony theft.