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This seems to be the key paragraph: "Most beginners who die appear to be making variations of the exact same error, according to Webb. “They jump off a cliff,
by Zuider 10y ago
This seems to be the key paragraph:
"Most beginners who die appear to be making variations of the exact same error, according to Webb. “They jump off a cliff, get flying, and for some reason there's just this human reaction to try to hug the air like a big, gigantic beach ball,” he explains. “By hugging air you feel as if you're creating or catching more lift than you actually are. What ends up happening is your suit can only grab so much air, and it starts to stall. When it starts to stall, it loses lift, starts to drag, and then, splat."
- manarth 10y agoThat's an interesting point, which has a fairly obvious solution: train wingsuiters to find the stallpoint - and even stall their wingsuit - in controlled conditions, where they can safely recover from a stall.
- underwater 10y agoCan they really recover? There's really no margin for error when they're a couple of dozen feet off the ground.
- danielvf 10y agoTrain while jumping out of aircraft, not off cliffs.
- justinator 10y agoPlease, name me one person who started base jumping off a cliff, and not jumping out of an aircraft.
- frisco 10y agoWhile you're right that it's not very common, I know at least 3 (non-famous) people who did that. BASE and skydiving are pretty separate communities and there are a lot of people who make friends in base from cross over in things like climbing or snowboarding and don't do skydiving. Source: am a skydiver/base jumper
- manarth 10y agoIt's discussed in BASE-jumping forums, mostly for its historical value, and to answer the people who ask with all seriousness: "How can I learn to BASE-jump, without bothering to learn skydiving first". You'll also see it referenced on the websites of places that run BASE courses [1], where it's repeatedly acknowledged that it has been done in the past, but it's now seen as a reckless practice. You can still find people that will teach this way, but for the most part, it's underground, and described as a "deathcamp" [2][3][4]. [1] http://base-book.com/skydive-to-base-jump http://base-book.com/skydive-to-base-jump [2] http://www.basejumper.com/Articles/Getting_Into_BASE/Number_of_Skydives_806.html http://www.basejumper.com/Articles/Getting_Into_BASE/Number_... [3] http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/General_Skydiving_Discussions_F18/Deathcamp_BASE/Skydive_P2003436 http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/General_Skydiving... [4] http://erikroner.com/242/ http://erikroner.com/242/
- teraflop 10y agoThe same is true of pilots. To land a plane you basically have to fly it right on the brink of stalling, and if you accidentally stall it a few seconds before touchdown, you're in big (though hopefully survivable) trouble. So it's very important to learn to recognize how the aircraft behaves in that transitional regime. Likewise, the idea here would be for wingsuit pilots to practice stalls and recovery while skydiving at a safe altitude. That way, when BASE jumping for real, they can recognize and prevent stalls before they happen so that recovery is unnecessary.
- sebcat 10y agoA pilot can correct by giving more power. Someone in an unpowered suit with ~3:1 glide ratio starting to recognize a stall while flying over terrain is already dead.
- arjunnarayan 10y agoCan you train them over water, so the stall is not fatal?
- manarth 10y agoTrain out of an aircraft…exit at 15000', and train down to 5000'. That would give plenty of time (and altitude) to recover from a stall, and safely deploy a parachute.
- imaginenore 10y agoSometimes they can, but I wouldn't count on that happening reliably. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hKhofOF_zo&t=120 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hKhofOF_zo&t=120
- manarth 10y agoWow, what a video. "You know, fear is a super-important thing now. And without fear, you will die." "I'm actually pretty happy this happened. I think in the long run it saved my life." Mind you, he doesn't leave much margin for error in his come-back jump!
- Zuider 10y agoThey could practice stalling via jumps from an airplane to get a feel for the limits of a wingsuit. As the article states, wingsuiting should be the last stage in a progression which begins with skydiving, not the first. Beginners are taking shortcuts on the road to necessary experience. The possibility of stalling should be obvious to anyone who has flown a kite or thrown a paper airplane. Inexperienced wingsuiters just seem to forget it. They are lured into trying to achieve the illusion of lift whereas an experienced practitioner would maintain speed.
- sebcat 10y agoPeople fly at max glide too close to terrain which leaves them with no options. If people instead flew fast, they could transfer that speed to lift if they find themselves in the corner, but if you're at max glide you can't really do much. Of couse, the main problem is people not flying within their limits, or giving themselves a good margin, but that's proximity flight by definition.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- throwawayReply 10y agoFor pilots instrumentation was useful. Are there airspeed indicators for wingsuit fliers and do they have stall speed estimates? With modern Bluetooth it feels like it ought to be possible to design a wingsuit HUD to help with this.
- Poiesis 10y agoWith all due respect, there is no way in hell I would trust Bluetooth with my life.
- sillysaurus3 10y agoIt might be better than no sensors.
- JustSomeNobody 10y agoor it might not be.
- manarth 10y ago> "Are there airspeed indicators for wingsuit fliers" Yes: there are devices that can be mounted to skydiving helmet, and provide audible feedback (using different tones to communicate information such as airspeed). FlySight is one example. "Audibles" are common practice throughout skydiving: usually two, mounted inside the helmet, next to each ear. They're usually set to beep at certain altitude thresholds: e.g. 5000' (break away from the formation), 3500' (deploy your parachute), 2000' (cut-away and deploy your reserve, if your main canopy is malfunctioning). The GPS devices have to be outside the helmet in order to receive signal, and they're typically used for communicating performance data rather than safety alerts. > "it ought to be possible to design a wingsuit HUD" Recon announced their Flight HUD in 2012 [1], but I don't know whether it succeeded as a product. I don't know of anyone using it. [1] https://www.engadget.com/2012/10/18/recon-instruments-offering-flight-hud-goggles/ https://www.engadget.com/2012/10/18/recon-instruments-offeri...
- amirmc 10y agoNot really a key paragraph. The article states that jumpers of all abilities are going in (dying). This is just one possible reason related to novices.
- Zuider 10y agoThe article states that stalling the suit is the primary reason for novice fatalities. As the sport becomes more popular, the majority of new practitioners will be novices making mistakes that an experienced jumper would not make.
- dahart 10y agoI was a little surprised by that quote since this is something you learn in skydiving class, and everyone's getting basic skydiving certification in order to start BASE. You learn on your first day that if you hug the beach ball, you will flip and fall with your back down. The easy to remember analogy is a falling leaf -- leaves always fall concave (edit I mean convex) side down; cupping the air is completely unstable. Anyway, you're right, it's an important piece, and I'm sure the hugging the beach ball thing might become an instinct response that overrides your training and happens very quickly when it becomes obvious that you're going to collide in 0.5 seconds. But, the article also immediately follows that with 'but that doesn't explain why the best flyers are dying'. The singular reason people are dying is because they're pushing the boundaries of proximity flying, not because beginners are accidentally stalling once they're too close.
- estefan 10y ago> leaves always fall concave side down That explains it. They fall convex side down...
- jon_richards 10y agoEasy way to remember: a cave is concave.
- Zuider 10y agoAnd it would be very vexing to try to enter a convex cave. Science class mnemonic!
- dahart 10y agoConvex! I meant convex. What a total brain fart. More coffee!
- dghughes 10y agoOr like the diheadral angle of airplane wings, anhedral ("negative dihedral") isn't as common. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihedral_(aeronautics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihedral_(aeronautics)