5 ms·

Really? Trump and the brown shirts? Do we need to compare everybody to Hitler? I read an article recently that says he's more of an American version of Italy

Really? Trump and the brown shirts? Do we need to compare everybody to Hitler? I read an article recently that says he's more of an American version of Italy's Berlusconi, and that seems more reasonable to me.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
lifeisstillgood 10y ago
I know the inexorable pull of Godwins Law, but this is a reasonable fear - Trump is standing at the top of a slippery slope, Berlusconi is further down the same slope, and the history of the 20th C shows where the slope goes. Putting up warning signs, even contentious ones, at the top of the slope is reasonable. (I read the same article and it is worth noting that a decade ago, every Italian I spoke to began conversations with "I am sorry about Berlusconi ...") I am not advocating ignoring all discussion of issues raised by Trump or (trumping?!) all his issues with the Nazi card, but it is a part of his background and appeal and should be calmly assessed along with other issues of protectionism, labor rights and more.
panic 10y ago
This Wednesday he literally promised to create a "deportation force". The comparison isn't too far off.
- bruceb 10y ago
  Sending people back who came illegally while people all around the world are waiting to come legally has zero in common with Nazis.
  - panic 10y ago
    The use of force to round up large groups of people is a terrifying thing, and it's absolutely something the Nazis did.
    - dilemma 10y ago
      Franklin D. Roosevelt rounded up those of Japanese descent and put them in internment camps. Dwight Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy invaded, proceeded to rounded and murder and otherwise caused the death of up to 3.1 million Vietnamese in the Vietnamese Resistance War against America. Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Kennedy are literally Hitler.
      - lisper 10y ago
        > Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Kennedy are literally Hitler. Clearly not. But neither are they the unambiguously virtuous "good guys" that Americans like to imagine that they are. Let's stop taking everything to extremes. Will a Trump presidency lead to mass executions of civilians in gas chambers? Probably not. Will it lead to innocent people -- mainly Muslims and people with dark skin -- being deported, separated from their families, tortured, and killed? Very likely. Trump has explicitly promised to do all of these things, and I see no reason to doubt him on this. Do I think it will happen to me? Probably not, but that's only because I'm a rich white guy. But I take little comfort from that because once xenophobia takes root it tends to grow like kudzu. I'm a rich white guy, but I'm also Jewish, so there are absolutely some Trump supporters who would like to see me go back to where I came from along with the Muslims, the Mexicans, and the niggers. The best way to keep those people out of power is to keep Trump out of power. And if pointing out the parallels between Trump and Hitler helps to do that then Godwin be damned. Sometimes the Nazi shoe fits. [UPDATE:] FWIW, it's not just me making this argument: http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/trumps-mass-deportation-machine-would-create-american-police-state-equal-nazi-germany http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/trumps-mass-deportatio...
    - epicureanideal 10y ago
      So for example, the Mexican Army being used to round up hundreds of drug cartel members makes them equivalent to the SS then? Rounding up large groups of people is not a sufficient condition for being equivalent to Hitler.
  - lisper 10y ago
    Actually it has everything in common with the Nazis. The Nazis were the law-and-order party of their day. Very nearly everything they did was legal. That is why they documented everything so meticulously. They really believed they were the good guys. The main reason the Nazis are the iconic villains is not because what they did was that much worse than other atrocities that humans have committed through the ages, but because they lost the war. Stalin killed vastly more civilians than Hitler, but you don't hear as much about that because Stalin was a Winner.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - erlehmann_ 10y ago
      I think the Nazis can serve as iconic villains mainly because a lot of their value system seems so alien compared to what we have in the western world today. Besides, many people like to believe they are the “good guys”.
      - lisper 10y ago
        Everyone thinks they're the good guys. Even the ISIS folks think they are the good guys, that they are fighting the good fight against the infidel for the greater glory of God. That's the whole point. That's the reason that, "It's OK because we're the good guys" is not a valid argument, because everyone applies it to themselves. "Sending people back who came illegally [is OK]" is a thinly disguised argument of that same form because we are the ones who decide what is legal. In that respect we are like the Nazis. They thought that what they were doing was OK because it was "legal", because they were "just following orders." Well, no, it was not OK. And deporting people who grew up here "illegally" through no fault of their own but rather because their adoptive parents didn't fill out the right paperwork and xenophobia happens to be running amok is likewise not OK no matter what the law says.
        michaelbuddy 10y ago
        just because somebody wants laws enforced doesn't make them 'xenophobic' And to say having immigration laws with consequences means the U.S. is like the Nazi's? I mean at this point there's really no point to consider you as thinking rationally.
lisper 10y ago
> Do we need to compare everybody to Hitler? Trump's policies are eerily reminiscent of Hitler's. Seriously, go look up some transcripts of Hitler's speeches, especially the early ones, and substitute "Muslim" for "Jew" and compare the results to Trump's rhetoric. Better yet, show the results to some Trump supporters and ask them if they agree with the sentiments. But I don't really care what color their shirts are. What I care about is: by what process do we decide who gets thrown out and who gets to stay. Trump's policy is: throw out everyone who can't prove they're here legally. Well, if a passport isn't good enough proof (and it manifestly is not) then I'm not sure I can prove I'm here legally. Will it be "that bad?" Maybe, maybe not. But if history teaches us anything it is that the time to speak up is before the answer becomes apparent.
- michaelbuddy 10y ago
  ehhh No. Every election cycle sees both sides compared to hitler. Hitler hyperbole is immature. And if you look at enough speeches or statements from anyone you can compare to a dictator. Not that hard. You're also blatantly excluding the things he's said about legal immigrants and muslims that are overwhelmingly positive. You've made that choice to ignore positive statements. > "Trumps policy is...." No. Trump has said time and again, we have immigration laws and we need to follow them. That includes having more reinforced border fences or walls. Already law. The end of sanctuary cities, which are basically localized laws breaking federal law.
  - lisper 10y ago
    > No. Trump has said time and again, we have immigration laws and we need to follow them. That's true, but that's not all he has said. He has also said that Mexicans are rapists, that Muslims should be banned from the U.S., and that he "doesn't know" about white supremacists. Among many, many other examples that I could cite. Trump is not an idiot. He's not going to grow a little mustache and call for a "final solution to the Muslim problem." But it is definitely fair to compare him to the Nazis because the Nazis provide a data point of what can happen when you give political power to xenophobes, which Trump most certainly is.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

lifeisstillgood 10y ago

I know the inexorable pull of Godwins Law, but this is a reasonable fear - Trump is standing at the top of a slippery slope, Berlusconi is further down the same slope, and the history of the 20th C shows where the slope goes. Putting up warning signs, even contentious ones, at the top of the slope is reasonable. (I read the same article and it is worth noting that a decade ago, every Italian I spoke to began conversations with "I am sorry about Berlusconi ...") I am not advocating ignoring all discussion of issues raised by Trump or (trumping?!) all his issues with the Nazi card, but it is a part of his background and appeal and should be calmly assessed along with other issues of protectionism, labor rights and more.

panic 10y ago

This Wednesday he literally promised to create a "deportation force". The comparison isn't too far off.

bruceb 10y ago
Sending people back who came illegally while people all around the world are waiting to come legally has zero in common with Nazis.
- panic 10y ago
  The use of force to round up large groups of people is a terrifying thing, and it's absolutely something the Nazis did.
  - dilemma 10y ago
    Franklin D. Roosevelt rounded up those of Japanese descent and put them in internment camps. Dwight Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy invaded, proceeded to rounded and murder and otherwise caused the death of up to 3.1 million Vietnamese in the Vietnamese Resistance War against America. Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Kennedy are literally Hitler.
    - lisper 10y ago
      > Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Kennedy are literally Hitler. Clearly not. But neither are they the unambiguously virtuous "good guys" that Americans like to imagine that they are. Let's stop taking everything to extremes. Will a Trump presidency lead to mass executions of civilians in gas chambers? Probably not. Will it lead to innocent people -- mainly Muslims and people with dark skin -- being deported, separated from their families, tortured, and killed? Very likely. Trump has explicitly promised to do all of these things, and I see no reason to doubt him on this. Do I think it will happen to me? Probably not, but that's only because I'm a rich white guy. But I take little comfort from that because once xenophobia takes root it tends to grow like kudzu. I'm a rich white guy, but I'm also Jewish, so there are absolutely some Trump supporters who would like to see me go back to where I came from along with the Muslims, the Mexicans, and the niggers. The best way to keep those people out of power is to keep Trump out of power. And if pointing out the parallels between Trump and Hitler helps to do that then Godwin be damned. Sometimes the Nazi shoe fits. [UPDATE:] FWIW, it's not just me making this argument: http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/trumps-mass-deportation-machine-would-create-american-police-state-equal-nazi-germany http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/trumps-mass-deportatio...
  - epicureanideal 10y ago
    So for example, the Mexican Army being used to round up hundreds of drug cartel members makes them equivalent to the SS then? Rounding up large groups of people is not a sufficient condition for being equivalent to Hitler.
- lisper 10y ago
  Actually it has everything in common with the Nazis. The Nazis were the law-and-order party of their day. Very nearly everything they did was legal. That is why they documented everything so meticulously. They really believed they were the good guys. The main reason the Nazis are the iconic villains is not because what they did was that much worse than other atrocities that humans have committed through the ages, but because they lost the war. Stalin killed vastly more civilians than Hitler, but you don't hear as much about that because Stalin was a Winner.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - erlehmann_ 10y ago
    I think the Nazis can serve as iconic villains mainly because a lot of their value system seems so alien compared to what we have in the western world today. Besides, many people like to believe they are the “good guys”.
    - lisper 10y ago
      Everyone thinks they're the good guys. Even the ISIS folks think they are the good guys, that they are fighting the good fight against the infidel for the greater glory of God. That's the whole point. That's the reason that, "It's OK because we're the good guys" is not a valid argument, because everyone applies it to themselves. "Sending people back who came illegally [is OK]" is a thinly disguised argument of that same form because we are the ones who decide what is legal. In that respect we are like the Nazis. They thought that what they were doing was OK because it was "legal", because they were "just following orders." Well, no, it was not OK. And deporting people who grew up here "illegally" through no fault of their own but rather because their adoptive parents didn't fill out the right paperwork and xenophobia happens to be running amok is likewise not OK no matter what the law says.
      - michaelbuddy 10y ago
        just because somebody wants laws enforced doesn't make them 'xenophobic' And to say having immigration laws with consequences means the U.S. is like the Nazi's? I mean at this point there's really no point to consider you as thinking rationally.

lisper 10y ago

> Do we need to compare everybody to Hitler? Trump's policies are eerily reminiscent of Hitler's. Seriously, go look up some transcripts of Hitler's speeches, especially the early ones, and substitute "Muslim" for "Jew" and compare the results to Trump's rhetoric. Better yet, show the results to some Trump supporters and ask them if they agree with the sentiments. But I don't really care what color their shirts are. What I care about is: by what process do we decide who gets thrown out and who gets to stay. Trump's policy is: throw out everyone who can't prove they're here legally. Well, if a passport isn't good enough proof (and it manifestly is not) then I'm not sure I can prove I'm here legally. Will it be "that bad?" Maybe, maybe not. But if history teaches us anything it is that the time to speak up is before the answer becomes apparent.

michaelbuddy 10y ago
ehhh No. Every election cycle sees both sides compared to hitler. Hitler hyperbole is immature. And if you look at enough speeches or statements from anyone you can compare to a dictator. Not that hard. You're also blatantly excluding the things he's said about legal immigrants and muslims that are overwhelmingly positive. You've made that choice to ignore positive statements. > "Trumps policy is...." No. Trump has said time and again, we have immigration laws and we need to follow them. That includes having more reinforced border fences or walls. Already law. The end of sanctuary cities, which are basically localized laws breaking federal law.
- lisper 10y ago
  > No. Trump has said time and again, we have immigration laws and we need to follow them. That's true, but that's not all he has said. He has also said that Mexicans are rapists, that Muslims should be banned from the U.S., and that he "doesn't know" about white supremacists. Among many, many other examples that I could cite. Trump is not an idiot. He's not going to grow a little mustache and call for a "final solution to the Muslim problem." But it is definitely fair to compare him to the Nazis because the Nazis provide a data point of what can happen when you give political power to xenophobes, which Trump most certainly is.