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The article fails to mention a key element in eliminating poverty -- free and affordable access to fertility control measures for women, as well as an absolute

by lutusp 10y ago

The article fails to mention a key element in eliminating poverty -- free and affordable access to fertility control measures for women, as well as an absolute sovereign right for women to choose when and whether to have children.

mamon 10y ago
There's one huge downside to this: eliminating poverty by reducing population leads to aging society, which leads to shitty pensions for retired workers, higher taxation, higher public debt, etc, which in turn leads back to population reduce. Basically, birth control leads to a slow death of civilization. The most tragic thing about it is that you can't do anything about it, as denying women the choice would be violation of their human rights. Therefore, advanced societies are doomed to die out and be replaced by more primitive ones. Which happened few times in history (e.g. Roman Empire) and is already happening again in some part of the world (e.g. EU immigration crisis)
- scalio 10y ago
  China disagrees. They're still growing, in spite of a bloody ruthless birth control system (though I seem to remember that they've loosened it a bit, not sure). Also, the Romans died out because they fell into decadence, which is exactly what the west is doing right now.
  - sevenless 10y ago
    > Also, the Romans died out because they fell into decadence No historian on earth believes this. That's a myth from Gibbon.
  - mantas 10y ago
    I doubt China disagrees. Demographics are about to hit the fan over there. They fucked up with the single-kid policy. It's now canceled, but China is set to have "aging population" in coming decades. Given that their current economy is built on cheap workforce, they're in deep shit.
- grey-area 10y ago
  The fall of the Roman empire was due to birth control?
  - mamon 10y ago
    Maybe not only because of that, but abortion was pretty common in Roman Empire. If you think it requires modern medicine to conduct abortion then you are mistaken.
    - omonra 10y ago
      Can you cite anything that mentions birth control as having anything to do with roman empire collapse? I'm genuinely interested.
      - pjc50 10y ago
        This is ridiculous, because the Roman empire did not collapse due to running out of Romans. Rome had a very generous naturalisation policy, part of its success. The fall of Rome is probably the most overdetermined overinvestigated event in history; everyone has their pet theory. It's usually marked as the crossing of the Rhine by various 'barbarians' and the inability to mount an effective defence.
  - visarga 10y ago
    Yes, but the Romans didn't have robots and automation. It will cancel out the decrease in population.
- nl 10y ago
  For people reading this, I'm pretty sure it is troll. Outrageous claim, no citations. Hmm. Don't feed the trolls
- lutusp 10y ago
  > Basically, birth control leads to a slow death of civilization. So does overpopulation. Your argument applies to a society that requires and assumes constant growth, for which it's certainly true, but that model has its own innate limitations, like overpopulation outstripping available land and resources. > The most tragic thing about it is that you can't do anything about it, as denying women the choice would be violation of their human rights. There's a myth implicit in this argument, that women would have more children if they could. But surveys reveal that women want to be able to choose, and if they could choose, they would have fewer children.
thr88923 10y ago
Not necessary. Men still do not have those rights, but society is doing just fine.
- lutusp 10y ago
  > Men still do not have those rights ... Wait ... men don't have the sovereign right not to get pregnant? I'm not sure that's a persuasive argument for or against anything. > ... but society is doing just fine. Yes, all except the part about being way overpopulated.

by lutusp 10y ago

mamon 10y ago

There's one huge downside to this: eliminating poverty by reducing population leads to aging society, which leads to shitty pensions for retired workers, higher taxation, higher public debt, etc, which in turn leads back to population reduce. Basically, birth control leads to a slow death of civilization. The most tragic thing about it is that you can't do anything about it, as denying women the choice would be violation of their human rights. Therefore, advanced societies are doomed to die out and be replaced by more primitive ones. Which happened few times in history (e.g. Roman Empire) and is already happening again in some part of the world (e.g. EU immigration crisis)

scalio 10y ago
China disagrees. They're still growing, in spite of a bloody ruthless birth control system (though I seem to remember that they've loosened it a bit, not sure). Also, the Romans died out because they fell into decadence, which is exactly what the west is doing right now.
- sevenless 10y ago
  > Also, the Romans died out because they fell into decadence No historian on earth believes this. That's a myth from Gibbon.
- mantas 10y ago
  I doubt China disagrees. Demographics are about to hit the fan over there. They fucked up with the single-kid policy. It's now canceled, but China is set to have "aging population" in coming decades. Given that their current economy is built on cheap workforce, they're in deep shit.
grey-area 10y ago
The fall of the Roman empire was due to birth control?
- mamon 10y ago
  Maybe not only because of that, but abortion was pretty common in Roman Empire. If you think it requires modern medicine to conduct abortion then you are mistaken.
  - omonra 10y ago
    Can you cite anything that mentions birth control as having anything to do with roman empire collapse? I'm genuinely interested.
    - pjc50 10y ago
      This is ridiculous, because the Roman empire did not collapse due to running out of Romans. Rome had a very generous naturalisation policy, part of its success. The fall of Rome is probably the most overdetermined overinvestigated event in history; everyone has their pet theory. It's usually marked as the crossing of the Rhine by various 'barbarians' and the inability to mount an effective defence.
- visarga 10y ago
  Yes, but the Romans didn't have robots and automation. It will cancel out the decrease in population.
nl 10y ago
For people reading this, I'm pretty sure it is troll. Outrageous claim, no citations. Hmm. Don't feed the trolls
lutusp 10y ago
> Basically, birth control leads to a slow death of civilization. So does overpopulation. Your argument applies to a society that requires and assumes constant growth, for which it's certainly true, but that model has its own innate limitations, like overpopulation outstripping available land and resources. > The most tragic thing about it is that you can't do anything about it, as denying women the choice would be violation of their human rights. There's a myth implicit in this argument, that women would have more children if they could. But surveys reveal that women want to be able to choose, and if they could choose, they would have fewer children.

thr88923 10y ago

Not necessary. Men still do not have those rights, but society is doing just fine.

lutusp 10y ago
> Men still do not have those rights ... Wait ... men don't have the sovereign right not to get pregnant? I'm not sure that's a persuasive argument for or against anything. > ... but society is doing just fine. Yes, all except the part about being way overpopulated.