5 ms·
With regards to the kit which was not aboard the plane, I have a few quick questions from anyone in the know. Missing were: - Aspirin - Nitroglycerin - Mask
by eganist 10y ago
With regards to the kit which was not aboard the plane, I have a few quick questions from anyone in the know.
Missing were:
- Aspirin
- Nitroglycerin
- Masks
- Fluid cleanup kits
- Airways
I'm assuming the latter three are one-time-use. I'm assuming the former two have expiration dates. Does anyone have info on how often these items might be used aboard flights and/or actually reach their expiration dates?
I'm asking specifically to see how much money is saved by not stocking up and simply assuming that the resulting lawsuits and fines are cheaper than keeping kit stocked. I simply can't attribute this kind of neglect to human error. Someone has to have done the math on this.
- emodendroket 10y agoI don't know about nitoglycerin, but aspirin expiration dates aren't really "hard" ones; you can basically ignore them.
- lifeformed 10y agoIs medical nitroglycerin different than the explodey kind?
- JshWright 10y agoChemically? No. It's just a very small amount (a few hundred micrograms), mixed with a lot of 'filler'.
- bzbarsky 10y agoThe actual molecule is not. In medical use you don't use pure nitroglycerin; you typically dilute it with other stuff. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroglycerin_(drug)#/media/File:Nitro.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroglycerin_(drug)#/media/Fi... shows that the IV solution is 40mg of nitroglycerin per 100 mL of solution, or about .04% by mass. I doubt it's very explodey. Of course even if you want to explode stuff you normally don't use pure nitroglycerin either, because it's _too_ explodey. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamite#Form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamite#Form dynamite is 20-60% nitroglycerin nowadays. Still a lot more than 0.04%.
- robryk 10y agoAs my siblings are saying, the same molecule but different concentration. This is the reason why you should handle dynamite in gloves: otherwise you absorb nitroglycerin through skin, lower your BP and faint.
- lighttower 10y agoDynamite is trinitrotoluene. Not nitroglycerin. Totally different biological activity.
- fnj 10y agoExcuse me; I don't think so. TNT is trinitrotoluene. Dynamite is a mixture of nitroglycerin, absorbents, and stabilizers.
- eganist 10y agoThis might be true, but it also wouldn't surprise me if regulations said "replace expired items."
- emodendroket 10y agoSome government agencies have saved a lot by holding onto "expired" medications. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB954201508530067326 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB954201508530067326
- eganist 10y agoNice. I'm not sure I'd trust military research all that much given how the VA has to deal with the aftermath of defects in medical policies and research by the DoD, but hey at least someone's researching it.
- niels_olson 10y agoVA hospitals generally support university research, not military research. The military has their own hospitals and more importantly their own field casualty care systems. Source: I am a physician researcher at a military medical center. As far as trusting research, you can probably find a good solid reason to distrust any research. Whatever your politics you can probably find something you disagree with about any given funding agency. But in that case we should just revert to our Neanderthal selves and solve all of our problems with clubs. What you should be doing is thinking critically about the introduction and method section And comparing them to the results. If you're in the field, you should know the authors or at least something about them and their methods.
- lostlogin 10y agoSome things - adrenaline comes to mind - have a very short time frame until expiration and frequently newer atock isn't available when ordered. I assume expired stock is often used.
- analog31 10y agoDon't ask how I know this: Nitroglycerin tablets come in a tiny, sealed glass jar. It's a weird little container. So I wonder if it's short-lived in air / humidity. If so, then replacing it periodically might be the prudent thing to do. Even at my workplace, which is a much more tame environment, somebody goes around and checks the contents of the first aid kits that are located around the buildings, periodically.
- pmiller2 10y ago> tiny, sealed glass jar. It's a weird little container. I believe that's referred to as an 'ampoule.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampoule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampoule
- mindslight 10y agoI doubt this is the result of any conscious optimization process. If it were, it would have been turned into a profit center - eg aspirin billed at $100/pill to the passenger who "requested" it. Who wouldn't want to get in on the hospitals' racket?
- groby_b 10y agoIIRC, passengers don't get to request anything. The kit stays closed, except for medical professionals. For good reasons - handing out meds likely entails liabilities, and no airline wants that.
- mindslight 10y agoThat's why I put "request" in quotes. The patient is unable to request anything; the doctor is doing it on their behalf.
- dredmorbius 10y agoMore likely: what's being optimised are cabin check proceedures between flights, or reporting cases / incidences of use. Possibly also raiding of supplies by parties with access -- cabin crew or cleaners would be highest on my list. But the point remains: Delta initiated a 17h flight with a lethal head flight attendant and a half-stocked medical kit, and have failed to follow-up on the incident. I'd like to see the FAA's incident report.
- paviva 10y agoI responded to a few in-flight emergencies on international flights. Each airline has its own idea of what should be in the emergency kit, and there really no standards/regulations that I am aware of. Aspirin is easy to ask for from other passengers. Same with Nitro : either the patient IS known for angina, and usually has his own, or he's not, and I would not suggest giving nitro "just in case" with the disastrous side effects it can have. Airways are mostly useless.
- tgokh 10y agoAre you in the US? The FAA has a strict set of minimum medical equipment for each flight with a flight attendant. [1][2]. European regulations require a lot more but don't actually apply to most flights in Europe as they only require an EMK for flights going more than 60 minutes from any airport. Even then, it seems like many European airlines carry a lot more than their American counterparts, though less than the ICAO recomendations [3] [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/part-121/appendix-A https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/part-121/appendix-A [2] http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC121-33B.pdf http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/A... [3] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893910001705 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893910...
- paviva 10y agoI'm in Canada. That being said, I've review your first link, and I'm not impressed. * Sphygmonanometer = useless. You can't hear fuck. Just taking the pulse is accurate enough in life or death circumstances. * Stethoscope = almost useless. You can't hear fuck. Might want to use to confirm a suspicion of pneumothorax. * Airways, oropharyngeal. Most people don't know how to use those. Might be useful, though * CPR mask. If he's coding in the plane, he's dead. * Saline solution, 500 cc. As good as two glasses of (holy) water by mouth. * Protective nonpermeable gloves or equivalent. Good ! Should have at least four of those. * Analgesic, non-narcotic, tablets, 325 mg = Tylenol. Who cares * Antihistamine injectable, 50 mg. Why ??? Not more potent than any cheap oral antihistamine. * Bronchodilator. Good * Epi. Good. But they should not have two different concentrations to confuse people. * Lidocaine. Have no idea why anyone would want that.
- tgokh 10y agoThe medical kits in the US are usually quite extensive [1] (and even more so on long-haul flights into Europe), and I've never heard of someone running into a half-stocked one before. Often airlines will carry more than one so that if the first one gets used (even if one item from it gets used), they still have a second one on board to meet the letter of the FAA mandate. From the FAA: "If the air carrier elects to have only one AED and one EMK on board, if that AED is inoperative or that EMK is incomplete, the aircraft may not be dispatched." Most of the meds have an expiry date of at least a year. Most airlines contract with someone like Banyan who handles supplying and refilling/recertifying the medical kits. [1] https://www.acep.org/Clinical---Practice-Management/Emergency-at-30,000-Feet---What-You-Can-Do/ https://www.acep.org/Clinical---Practice-Management/Emergenc...
- cperciva 10y agoThe list of mandatory supplies is longer than that; those were probably just the ones this particular doctor was looking for. As of April 12, 2004 the FAA requires an emergency medical kit containing 25 specific items (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/part-121/appendix-A https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/part-121/appendix-A). Given the general markup on anything certified for use in aviation, I suspect the cost is on the order of $1000 / year / plane; my guess is that the EMK had been used and not restocked rather than Delta deliberately understocking medical supplies.
- XorNot 10y agoThat is essentially as bad. They're running an airline - a business predicated on checking everything when you land a plane. Not restocking life-saving emergency medical items after use is inexcusable.
- dawnerd 10y agoNot defending them but it could be possible the plane had a quick turnaround and the crew in charge of checking failed. I've had flights where they didn't even get the cleaning or catering crew in. Honestly if a flight is that tight to schedule they should just delay to make sure everything is right.
- jsumrall 10y agoIf you're a FA and the emergency medical kit gets used on the flight, I imagine you would remember that when the plane lands. Forgetting that you had an emergency on board and not restocking the kit takes an incredible amount of thoughtlessness.
- tajen 10y agoIt could also have been pillaged by a drug addict. The check list may be "Check the medical kit is in board", and only checking the contents every 10 flights. Quite a low probabiliy that this happens together with a myocard problem and a problematic flight attendant, though.
- robbiep 10y agosounds like an IV PPI would have been highly useful here as well
- sevenless 10y agoToday I learned that planes carry nitroglycerin.
- JshWright 10y agoYes, dozens of milligrams of the stuff...
- slr555 10y agoNitroglycerin has a fairly short half life and doesn't love being exposed to air. Aspirin like any drug has a shelf life but not an unusually short one. Masks etc are going to have an expiration but unless the package is damaged are likely fine. Airways being invasive require closer management. Tetracycline is one of the few drugs that I am aware of that most practitioners will not use past expiration because of reports in the literature that old tetracycline caused kidney damage. There are well defined SOPs in healthcare for when a sealed kit is opened. It is taken out of service, restocked, QCd, and returned to service. There was no mention of O2 administration in this article but the oxygen kit also requires routine checks and maintenance.
- niels_olson 10y agoThe biggest issue with airways is making sure the blade has batteries. Had a guy show up to a doc-in-a-box I was staffing and they had a full complement of tubes and blades, but no batteries. That is one time you really want batteries.
- throwanem 10y agoMany whole aircraft have been lost to human error, most often outside the cockpit. I don't think it's too hard to believe as a reason for the medical kits not being restocked.