5 ms·

Strong Passwords

31 points by simbalion 10y ago

zyxley 10y ago
One of the more persistent annoyances of the modern web for the tech-savvy is the experience of putting a long, randomly generated password into a site and getting an "invalid characters" error.
- Scirra_Tom 10y ago
  Or sites that don't let you paste in, and ask you to confirm it.
  - Exuma 10y ago
    Or sites with a maximum length of something like 10 characters
    - Klathmon 10y ago
      I'm really surprised at maximum character lengths. I use a password generator that defaults to 256 characters, and literally nobody has allowed that yet that i've tried. It's funny the arbitrary numbers some cut off at. Many limit it at 32, a strange number at 40 for some reason, a few at 60, and others still will silently truncate it to some number on the signup form, then forget to truncate the login form...
      - LeoPanthera 10y ago
        256 characters is ~1536 bits depending on what characters you use. There is secure, and there is silly. NIST recommends 80 bits for passwords. Anything over 128 bits is excessive, anything over 256 bits is silly.
        Klathmon 10y ago
        I'm not complaining about them not supporting 256, I just find it strange the arbitrary limits imposed. A site I signed up for today limited it at 42. Why? And even if 128 is way over excessive, does it actually make a difference to the server? Obviously you don't want to be hashing multi megabyte passwords, but don't most password hashing systems need a certain sized key to work, so it's padded out to that point anyway? And once it's processing further "iterations", the size of the first password is pretty much irrelevant.
        pfg 10y ago
        bcrypt, for example, is limited to 50-70 character inputs, depending on the implementation.
        ajmurmann 10y ago
        If you use a password manager there is practically no cost to the user to use any number of characters. Why not go for something insanely large from the user perspective?
    - jonathanoliver 10y ago
      Or sites that don't tell you the max number of allowed characters and then quietly truncate the password for you. Then you have to guess how many characters they chopped off and try logging in until you get it right.
      - chb 10y ago
        This! This is the most infuriating... and the salt in the wound is that some of the offenders are career/employment sites for firms that should have enough tech savvy employees to code a form that does client-side verification and clearly indicate password criteria to the user.
    - pixel_fcker 10y ago
      Royal bank of Canada uses a single 8-character alphanumeric password for online banking, and that login is also good for identifying yourself for government services (e.g. Tax services). I still can't believe it.
      - simbalion 10y ago
        You might want to raise a stink, show this article to their support staff: http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/12/25-gpu-cluster-cracks-every-standard-windows-password-in-6-hours/ http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/12/25-gpu-cluster-crack... Raise the point that forcing insecure practices on government operated financial sites might be a case of illegal negligence.
Spooky23 10y ago
Just use diceware. Simple and effective. http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html
- simbalion 10y ago
  Diceware is not suitable for general use, because it is important to have a unique password on every service. That practice isolates you from the damage of sites like LinkedIn and Dropbox being compromised. If you use diceware for everything you've got to remember all of those unique passphrases which defeats the whole point of diceware. Where diceware shines is in creating a master password, which is explained in the guide.
- JBiserkov 10y ago
  Another descriptions of Diceware https://theintercept.com/2015/03/26/passphrases-can-memorize-attackers-cant-guess/ https://theintercept.com/2015/03/26/passphrases-can-memorize...
- eterm 10y ago
  Diceware is great for passphrases. Passphrases are not passwords and I think they shouldn't be recommended for use as passwords. Passphrases are fantastic for encryption keys, where trying to otherwise memorise a suitable amount of entropy to match the required strength would be almost impossible. But passwords don't need to be 256 bit. If you're using a password manager it doesn't hurt to keep passwords as strong as each service will allow, but Diceware isn't the right tool for the job for passwords, because while it's great for memorizing one or two high entropy phrases, there's no way someone could be expected to memorize the dozens of passwords they use on a daily basis. At which point you're back to bad solutions such as writing it down, using the same phrase everywhere or cheating on the lengths. The only sane way to manage dozens of services in a way that doesn't bleed risk from one service compromise to the next is password managers. At which point a 16-20 character password of random characters is more suitable than a passphase. It's harder to memorize if anyone happens to see it due to a miss-paste or whatever, it's easier to type in if you need to and it's less likely to suffer from "silent truncation" effects. So use a password manager, use a diceware phrase to secure the master password (encryption) there, but allow the password managers to generate passwords which are short and random.
krupan 10y ago
I haven't lookek at keepass in a long time, and a quick glance at the website didn't help. The author of TFA says that keepass handles synchronization for you. Is that true? Because it didn't do that in the past. Also, can keepass generate secure passwords for you? That's something I love about lastpass. UPDATE: also, how easy is it to use on an Android?
- x1798DE 10y ago
  Keepass can generate secure passwords yes, with customizable rules. I think synchronization on Keepass's side is possible, but to me the fact that your password database doesn't talk to "the cloud" is a major selling point. I even use the alternate version of Keepass2Android that doesn't have internet permissions as an extra precaution.
- zyxley 10y ago
  See: http://keepass.info/help/v2/sync.html http://keepass.info/help/v2/sync.html From what I understand, the encryption is done client-side per individual item (e.g. if you use a cloud provider, unencrypted data never touches them), but there's some generally questionable stuff in how it handles secure things: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9727297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9727297
- pfg 10y ago
  I believe what the article was referring to with regards to synchronization is that it works fine with existing file sync software like Dropbox or Google Drive, and knows how to merge changes. I believe there are plugins for things like SFTP as well. It does not provide a hosted synchronisation server or anything like that, so that would still be a selling point for LastPass or 1Password's subscription services if you want that feature.
- calvano915 10y ago
  There are plugins for syncing to various cloud providers. For each device platform, there will be many apps available that support Keepass. Each app will vary in how useful it is to you (each one is a different third-party developer), but I've found the level of functionality is good enough that it ultimately became my password manager. I use it cloud synced with a Windows PC and Windows Phone app. I only install/use plugins/apps that are linked directly from the Keepass website as trustworthy projects.
emddudley 10y ago
> At a bare minimum you should be using a unique 32 character random alphanumeric on every website or service that you use. That is a non-starter....
- stcredzero 10y ago
  Why would anyone use more than 128 bits of entropy in a password/passphrase? (24 characters alphanumeric with upper and lower case.) The answer: "I don't have to out-run the bear. I just have to out-run you!"
  - joshka 10y ago
    And then protect it with a 128 bit AES key...
    - stcredzero 10y ago
      But when a website you're using is hacked, it's probably not your password database that's being attacked. It's probably that site's password hashing that's being attacked.
3pt14159 10y ago
If you are like me and you like the idea of password managers but don't trust them because they're giant targets for cyber criminals and intelligence agencies have at my trusty ruby script: puts ((rand * 1_000_000_000).to_i.to_s + \ ("a".."z").to_a.sample(10).join + \ ("A".."Z").to_a.sample(10).join + "_") Some benefits: If you need to enter in a password on your phone the numbers / capitals are all in a row, so you're not constantly shift-on / shift-off-ing. There is multi-case alphanumeric with a symbol, so it passes most website checks. If the website is something dumb and they don't allow special characters your underscore is right at the end so you can just delete it, and since it is an underscore it's a special character usually allowed (unlike % for example) because they're not weirdly encoded, even in URLs. You can save your passwords in a gpg'd text file if you want, though it usually doesn't matter that much. Just store them in chrome and use two-factor. If you get logged out just password reset to your email.
- parennoob 10y ago
  What do you do when you're traveling and don't have a laptop handy, but need to log in to Gmail on a public computer to email your family? Or just if you're traveling and have a phone (but not a laptop), and need to access your banking account?
  - 3pt14159 10y ago
    Gmail is the only password that you need to memorize. As for banking, not being able to log in without my laptop hasn't been an issue, but I can always call my bank with the weak phone password (but which includes voice detection software) and once authenticated have them do most types of things. You're right though, it isn't perfect.
- e1g 10y ago
  Making the password easier to enter on a mobile is a clever idea. Those who don't care for that, and want to generate a random password can use openssl - $ openssl rand -base64 25
LeoPanthera 10y ago
Having worked in IT, this is the kind of "guide" that I hate. It's theoretically correct, but wildly impractical and therefore not useful at all. Do not let perfect be the enemy of good. Right now, people's password hygiene is not even "good". Some specific criticisms: > At a bare minimum you should be using a unique 32 character random alphanumeric on every website or service that you use. Sometimes you have to type in a password, even if you use a password manager. Maybe you are using a public computer. 32 character passwords are laughable. NIST recommends 80 bits, that's ~14 characters. Entirely sufficient. > Do not use online password services If it means you're using different, reasonably strong passwords for all your accounts instead of just one password shared with everything, then PLEASE DO use an online password service. You will be vastly more secure. Getting "normal" people to use good passwords means their password manager has to be super easy to use. LastPass is fine. 1Password is fine. Hell, even writing your passwords down in a book is fine, as long as you look after the book.
- nikcub 10y ago
  Infosec has struggled with 'good is better than perfect' - where good advice that is practical for most people is criticized for not being perfect practice that is often impractical. Thankfully, now that there is a lot more public awareness of infosec practices - driven in large part by there seemingly being a big infosec story every week - a lot of the best practices advice has been loosened towards the more practical. In terms of password management, I agree with you completely - the default advice should be to use an online password manager. I've got my partner and most of my family using Dashlane and with near 100% unique password compliance. That type of adoption with regular users would never have happen had I stuck to "keepass, diceware and 32 character unique passwords" level advice.
- simbalion 10y ago
  I think encouraging longer passwords is a good idea. Even if 14 characters is suitable today in 2016, as computers get faster it will soon not be adequate. By encouraging different password habits, people will be better prepared for the future. I have to question your expertise on this matter since you suggest writing passwords down in a book, as well as using online password databases, both are terrible ideas.
discreditable 10y ago
For passwords I need to be able to remember (not many) or share (initial passwords for user accounts) I use a passphrase generator. Everything else is random 24-character Keepass. Plugging my super simple passphrase generator built upon the EFF wordlist: https://spg.brashear.me https://spg.brashear.me
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
sunstone 10y ago
Any 'password manager' is a priority target. Just use longish pass phrase and don't walk around with a target on your back.
babby 10y ago
The only complicated part of this method is securing the key, and the key is definitely required or you may as well just save it as plain text. You sync your DB across multiple cloud services, and to decrypt you use a weak master pass and strong key. I've been struggling with how to move that key around. .1) Put it on a USB drive or hide it in your filesystem. This is cumbersome and losing the drive could be disastrous. It's also trivial to scan a filesystem for key-like files. .2) Use an authentication dongle. This one is better but requires third party hardware in most cases, and is slightly expensive. .3) Bluetooth/NFC to your device. This can be intercepted at extended ranges as proven at defcon etc. Though is admittedly the most convenient method. The data can be signed, but I haven't seen anything out there that implements this well just yet. .4) Timed one time passwords, PushBullet etc. This feels like a bonus feature. I'm not sure how to go about this. You lose or leak the key then you're screwed. Is there a wristwatch or phone app with signed credential sharing based on wearer input, compatible to a standard?
rcthompson 10y ago
What about 8-character passwords with letters, numbers, and symbols? What if it includes non-ASCII characters?

31 points by simbalion 10y ago

One of the more persistent annoyances of the modern web for the tech-savvy is the experience of putting a long, randomly generated password into a site and getting an "invalid characters" error.

Scirra_Tom 10y ago
Or sites that don't let you paste in, and ask you to confirm it.
- Exuma 10y ago
  Or sites with a maximum length of something like 10 characters
  - Klathmon 10y ago
    I'm really surprised at maximum character lengths. I use a password generator that defaults to 256 characters, and literally nobody has allowed that yet that i've tried. It's funny the arbitrary numbers some cut off at. Many limit it at 32, a strange number at 40 for some reason, a few at 60, and others still will silently truncate it to some number on the signup form, then forget to truncate the login form...
    - LeoPanthera 10y ago
      256 characters is ~1536 bits depending on what characters you use. There is secure, and there is silly. NIST recommends 80 bits for passwords. Anything over 128 bits is excessive, anything over 256 bits is silly.
      - Klathmon 10y ago
        I'm not complaining about them not supporting 256, I just find it strange the arbitrary limits imposed. A site I signed up for today limited it at 42. Why? And even if 128 is way over excessive, does it actually make a difference to the server? Obviously you don't want to be hashing multi megabyte passwords, but don't most password hashing systems need a certain sized key to work, so it's padded out to that point anyway? And once it's processing further "iterations", the size of the first password is pretty much irrelevant.
        pfg 10y ago
        bcrypt, for example, is limited to 50-70 character inputs, depending on the implementation.
      - ajmurmann 10y ago
        If you use a password manager there is practically no cost to the user to use any number of characters. Why not go for something insanely large from the user perspective?
  - jonathanoliver 10y ago
    Or sites that don't tell you the max number of allowed characters and then quietly truncate the password for you. Then you have to guess how many characters they chopped off and try logging in until you get it right.
    - chb 10y ago
      This! This is the most infuriating... and the salt in the wound is that some of the offenders are career/employment sites for firms that should have enough tech savvy employees to code a form that does client-side verification and clearly indicate password criteria to the user.
  - pixel_fcker 10y ago
    Royal bank of Canada uses a single 8-character alphanumeric password for online banking, and that login is also good for identifying yourself for government services (e.g. Tax services). I still can't believe it.
    - simbalion 10y ago
      You might want to raise a stink, show this article to their support staff: http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/12/25-gpu-cluster-cracks-every-standard-windows-password-in-6-hours/ http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/12/25-gpu-cluster-crack... Raise the point that forcing insecure practices on government operated financial sites might be a case of illegal negligence.

Spooky23 10y ago

Just use diceware. Simple and effective. http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html

simbalion 10y ago
Diceware is not suitable for general use, because it is important to have a unique password on every service. That practice isolates you from the damage of sites like LinkedIn and Dropbox being compromised. If you use diceware for everything you've got to remember all of those unique passphrases which defeats the whole point of diceware. Where diceware shines is in creating a master password, which is explained in the guide.
JBiserkov 10y ago
Another descriptions of Diceware https://theintercept.com/2015/03/26/passphrases-can-memorize-attackers-cant-guess/ https://theintercept.com/2015/03/26/passphrases-can-memorize...
eterm 10y ago
Diceware is great for passphrases. Passphrases are not passwords and I think they shouldn't be recommended for use as passwords. Passphrases are fantastic for encryption keys, where trying to otherwise memorise a suitable amount of entropy to match the required strength would be almost impossible. But passwords don't need to be 256 bit. If you're using a password manager it doesn't hurt to keep passwords as strong as each service will allow, but Diceware isn't the right tool for the job for passwords, because while it's great for memorizing one or two high entropy phrases, there's no way someone could be expected to memorize the dozens of passwords they use on a daily basis. At which point you're back to bad solutions such as writing it down, using the same phrase everywhere or cheating on the lengths. The only sane way to manage dozens of services in a way that doesn't bleed risk from one service compromise to the next is password managers. At which point a 16-20 character password of random characters is more suitable than a passphase. It's harder to memorize if anyone happens to see it due to a miss-paste or whatever, it's easier to type in if you need to and it's less likely to suffer from "silent truncation" effects. So use a password manager, use a diceware phrase to secure the master password (encryption) there, but allow the password managers to generate passwords which are short and random.

krupan 10y ago

I haven't lookek at keepass in a long time, and a quick glance at the website didn't help. The author of TFA says that keepass handles synchronization for you. Is that true? Because it didn't do that in the past. Also, can keepass generate secure passwords for you? That's something I love about lastpass. UPDATE: also, how easy is it to use on an Android?

x1798DE 10y ago
Keepass can generate secure passwords yes, with customizable rules. I think synchronization on Keepass's side is possible, but to me the fact that your password database doesn't talk to "the cloud" is a major selling point. I even use the alternate version of Keepass2Android that doesn't have internet permissions as an extra precaution.
zyxley 10y ago
See: http://keepass.info/help/v2/sync.html http://keepass.info/help/v2/sync.html From what I understand, the encryption is done client-side per individual item (e.g. if you use a cloud provider, unencrypted data never touches them), but there's some generally questionable stuff in how it handles secure things: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9727297 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9727297
pfg 10y ago
I believe what the article was referring to with regards to synchronization is that it works fine with existing file sync software like Dropbox or Google Drive, and knows how to merge changes. I believe there are plugins for things like SFTP as well. It does not provide a hosted synchronisation server or anything like that, so that would still be a selling point for LastPass or 1Password's subscription services if you want that feature.
calvano915 10y ago
There are plugins for syncing to various cloud providers. For each device platform, there will be many apps available that support Keepass. Each app will vary in how useful it is to you (each one is a different third-party developer), but I've found the level of functionality is good enough that it ultimately became my password manager. I use it cloud synced with a Windows PC and Windows Phone app. I only install/use plugins/apps that are linked directly from the Keepass website as trustworthy projects.

emddudley 10y ago

> At a bare minimum you should be using a unique 32 character random alphanumeric on every website or service that you use. That is a non-starter....

stcredzero 10y ago
Why would anyone use more than 128 bits of entropy in a password/passphrase? (24 characters alphanumeric with upper and lower case.) The answer: "I don't have to out-run the bear. I just have to out-run you!"
- joshka 10y ago
  And then protect it with a 128 bit AES key...
  - stcredzero 10y ago
    But when a website you're using is hacked, it's probably not your password database that's being attacked. It's probably that site's password hashing that's being attacked.

3pt14159 10y ago

If you are like me and you like the idea of password managers but don't trust them because they're giant targets for cyber criminals and intelligence agencies have at my trusty ruby script: puts ((rand * 1_000_000_000).to_i.to_s + \ ("a".."z").to_a.sample(10).join + \ ("A".."Z").to_a.sample(10).join + "_") Some benefits: If you need to enter in a password on your phone the numbers / capitals are all in a row, so you're not constantly shift-on / shift-off-ing. There is multi-case alphanumeric with a symbol, so it passes most website checks. If the website is something dumb and they don't allow special characters your underscore is right at the end so you can just delete it, and since it is an underscore it's a special character usually allowed (unlike % for example) because they're not weirdly encoded, even in URLs. You can save your passwords in a gpg'd text file if you want, though it usually doesn't matter that much. Just store them in chrome and use two-factor. If you get logged out just password reset to your email.

parennoob 10y ago
What do you do when you're traveling and don't have a laptop handy, but need to log in to Gmail on a public computer to email your family? Or just if you're traveling and have a phone (but not a laptop), and need to access your banking account?
- 3pt14159 10y ago
  Gmail is the only password that you need to memorize. As for banking, not being able to log in without my laptop hasn't been an issue, but I can always call my bank with the weak phone password (but which includes voice detection software) and once authenticated have them do most types of things. You're right though, it isn't perfect.
e1g 10y ago
Making the password easier to enter on a mobile is a clever idea. Those who don't care for that, and want to generate a random password can use openssl - $ openssl rand -base64 25

LeoPanthera 10y ago

Having worked in IT, this is the kind of "guide" that I hate. It's theoretically correct, but wildly impractical and therefore not useful at all. Do not let perfect be the enemy of good. Right now, people's password hygiene is not even "good". Some specific criticisms: > At a bare minimum you should be using a unique 32 character random alphanumeric on every website or service that you use. Sometimes you have to type in a password, even if you use a password manager. Maybe you are using a public computer. 32 character passwords are laughable. NIST recommends 80 bits, that's ~14 characters. Entirely sufficient. > Do not use online password services If it means you're using different, reasonably strong passwords for all your accounts instead of just one password shared with everything, then PLEASE DO use an online password service. You will be vastly more secure. Getting "normal" people to use good passwords means their password manager has to be super easy to use. LastPass is fine. 1Password is fine. Hell, even writing your passwords down in a book is fine, as long as you look after the book.

nikcub 10y ago
Infosec has struggled with 'good is better than perfect' - where good advice that is practical for most people is criticized for not being perfect practice that is often impractical. Thankfully, now that there is a lot more public awareness of infosec practices - driven in large part by there seemingly being a big infosec story every week - a lot of the best practices advice has been loosened towards the more practical. In terms of password management, I agree with you completely - the default advice should be to use an online password manager. I've got my partner and most of my family using Dashlane and with near 100% unique password compliance. That type of adoption with regular users would never have happen had I stuck to "keepass, diceware and 32 character unique passwords" level advice.
simbalion 10y ago
I think encouraging longer passwords is a good idea. Even if 14 characters is suitable today in 2016, as computers get faster it will soon not be adequate. By encouraging different password habits, people will be better prepared for the future. I have to question your expertise on this matter since you suggest writing passwords down in a book, as well as using online password databases, both are terrible ideas.

discreditable 10y ago

For passwords I need to be able to remember (not many) or share (initial passwords for user accounts) I use a passphrase generator. Everything else is random 24-character Keepass. Plugging my super simple passphrase generator built upon the EFF wordlist: https://spg.brashear.me https://spg.brashear.me

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

sunstone 10y ago

Any 'password manager' is a priority target. Just use longish pass phrase and don't walk around with a target on your back.

babby 10y ago

The only complicated part of this method is securing the key, and the key is definitely required or you may as well just save it as plain text. You sync your DB across multiple cloud services, and to decrypt you use a weak master pass and strong key. I've been struggling with how to move that key around. .1) Put it on a USB drive or hide it in your filesystem. This is cumbersome and losing the drive could be disastrous. It's also trivial to scan a filesystem for key-like files. .2) Use an authentication dongle. This one is better but requires third party hardware in most cases, and is slightly expensive. .3) Bluetooth/NFC to your device. This can be intercepted at extended ranges as proven at defcon etc. Though is admittedly the most convenient method. The data can be signed, but I haven't seen anything out there that implements this well just yet. .4) Timed one time passwords, PushBullet etc. This feels like a bonus feature. I'm not sure how to go about this. You lose or leak the key then you're screwed. Is there a wristwatch or phone app with signed credential sharing based on wearer input, compatible to a standard?

rcthompson 10y ago

What about 8-character passwords with letters, numbers, and symbols? What if it includes non-ASCII characters?