4 ms·

In my personal experience, when I first tried Open Office it ended up being a clunky, unreliable clone of older Microsoft Office products. It was still better t

by bArray 10y ago

In my personal experience, when I first tried Open Office it ended up being a clunky, unreliable clone of older Microsoft Office products. It was still better than a kick in the teeth though. In all honesty, after writing my own simple manual editor for PDF, I really don't envy the task of making something compatible with multiple other formats. It would be nice to see the project archived or completely released to the community to continue work on.

MichaelMoser123 10y ago
> ... clunky, unreliable clone of older Microsoft Office products. It was still better than a kick in the teeth though. That's exactly why i am using Open/Libre office; at some point Microsoft Office got such a complicate UI (ever since they pushed the ribbon bar - that's when they kicked me in the teeth) that i am unable to use it - the alternative uses a much less complicated UI so i am with it. Does the MS Office UI conform with the Windows UI guidelines ? I am not quite sure.. As for 'unreliable' - i can't share this perspective; LibreOffice works for me; didn't have any problems with OpenOffice either - before i switched to LibreOffice. I switched because LibreOffice is supposed to have better support. Interesting that MS often gets to a point where the UI is quite adequate, but then they have to come up with something new, so they come out with an update that breaks it all. Happened with Windows, Office, Visual Studio, Visual Basic - you name it; i think it also happened with gmail - so it does not seem to be something exclusive to MS; i wonder if that is a general law of software development.
- the_duke 10y ago
  Am I alone here in actually liking the ribbon? I almost never use any MS Office product (Latex for serious writing, R for statistics, ...) but when I have to because of a client or whatever, I find the Ribbon to be convenient for a non-power user.
  - antisthenes 10y ago
    I love the ribbon. It brought the most used functionality to the front where you don't have to navigate a text menu to find.
    - bbatha 10y ago
      It also makes shortcuts discoverable! Just hit the alt-key and virtually every thing pops up with it hot key. Hitting alt in a standard windows app only tells me what menus are available, not which actions are available.
      - nitrogen 10y ago
        Ok, maybe shortcuts are discoverable, but actual actions no longer are. Not everyone finds the ribbon an improvement; I feel the need to point that out since so many comments appeared praising the awfully opaque ribbon.
        andrepd 10y ago
        How so? Why are actions hidden in nested menus easier to find than in the ribbon?
        bashinator 10y ago
        Because the menus are words, describing the function of their contents at a glance.
        int_19h 10y ago
        So are Ribbon headers.
        dageshi 10y ago
        In my opinion yes. Or rather, Windows users have had decades being trained to find certain functionality under certain menu options to the degree that most will do it by second nature irrespective of the application they're in. The ribbon menu throws all that muscle memory away and leaves you trying to find it again in an interface that no other applications use. I don't frequently need to use office products but when I do I find them absolutely infuriating.
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    The ribbon is probably the best example of "people are resistant to change". In retrospect, because I was grumpy about it too at the time. But once you get used to it, it's vastly superior in every conceivable way to the old UI.
    - Drdrdrq 10y ago
      Well, I am using it almost daily for years now and still hate it. So it probably depends on a person.
      - blakeyrat 10y ago
        It wasn't optimized for "people like it", it was optimized for ease-of-use and discoverability. You could simultaneously hate it with a passion, and also be 3 times more efficient at editing a document while using it, and that counts as a success.
        Drdrdrq 10y ago
        No. I hate it because while ease-of-use is better, discoverability is much worse. I am constantly seeking answers to UI problems on Google. Also, how is it a success if I hate my tool with passion, no matter how efficient I am? We must have different value systems... :)
  - perlgeek 10y ago
    When the ribbon works, which is most of the time, it's pretty good. When not, it can be a complete PITA. A few years ago I tried to change the scaling of an axis of a chart in Excel from linear to log, and it was so convoluted that I had to look up in the help each time I did it.
    - addicted 10y ago
      I guess the relevant question is whether this would have been easier if the ribbon didn't exist, and you had to do it through the menu bar. It appears to me that the issue here is that Excel makes scaling the axis of a chart convoluted. Not that the ribbon makes it harder than the regular menu bar.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    I sort of think the infrastructure is in mostly in place to allow for themes that largely mimic the ribbon. Optional, of course :-) The default should not be the ribbon, but there are aspects of the Ribbon LO could use. But it's funny - the Symphony stuff that was given to Apache by IBM, and which Apache integrated and we snagged and further fixed and are enhancing is in so many ways better than the Ribbon! The Sidebar could, IMO, be enhanced and turned into the Ribbon.
  - addicted 10y ago
    Love the ribbon too. OO/LO/iWork have become unusable for me since the ribbon. The initial implementation of the ribbon sucked. It was too static, it didn't hide and took up a whole lot of space, and it didn't give you any pointers on KB shortcuts. It also took MS some time of gathering data and telemetry to improve the layout. And frankly, it took users some time to adjust to the change. The ribbon is much better now. But the people who like it, possibly still suffering from having to maybe defend it when it legitimately had flaws, are not as loud about it online.
- bArray 10y ago
  "Does the MS Office UI conform with the Windows UI guidelines ?" Definitely not. The ribbon style and circle menu are a different design universe entirely. I agree that moving things around was annoying. "As for 'unreliable' - i can't share this perspective; LibreOffice works for me; didn't have any problems with OpenOffice either - before i switched to LibreOffice. I switched because LibreOffice is supposed to have better support." The unreliability for me was a mixture of not such great support and occasional crashing. Libreoffice was much better. I originally moved from Microsoft office because I got tired of pirating the latest version. It was a hassle because of the time to download (I had a slow connection) and the risk of viruses each stage. The move to Linux was the final nail in the coffin for me. As time has gone on I have come to appreciate open software, which again makes Windows (or Apple) not an option for me.
  - int_19h 10y ago
    Ribbon is part of Windows UX guidelines these days, and has been for a long time now.
    - bArray 10y ago
      Where else is it used? Admittedly it's been a while since I dirtied one of my machines with Windows.
      - int_19h 10y ago
        Most stock apps - e.g. Explorer, Paint, WordPad. It's part of Win32 API now, so it's readily available to any app: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd316910(v=vs.85).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd3...

by bArray 10y ago

MichaelMoser123 10y ago

> ... clunky, unreliable clone of older Microsoft Office products. It was still better than a kick in the teeth though. That's exactly why i am using Open/Libre office; at some point Microsoft Office got such a complicate UI (ever since they pushed the ribbon bar - that's when they kicked me in the teeth) that i am unable to use it - the alternative uses a much less complicated UI so i am with it. Does the MS Office UI conform with the Windows UI guidelines ? I am not quite sure.. As for 'unreliable' - i can't share this perspective; LibreOffice works for me; didn't have any problems with OpenOffice either - before i switched to LibreOffice. I switched because LibreOffice is supposed to have better support. Interesting that MS often gets to a point where the UI is quite adequate, but then they have to come up with something new, so they come out with an update that breaks it all. Happened with Windows, Office, Visual Studio, Visual Basic - you name it; i think it also happened with gmail - so it does not seem to be something exclusive to MS; i wonder if that is a general law of software development.

the_duke 10y ago
Am I alone here in actually liking the ribbon? I almost never use any MS Office product (Latex for serious writing, R for statistics, ...) but when I have to because of a client or whatever, I find the Ribbon to be convenient for a non-power user.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  I love the ribbon. It brought the most used functionality to the front where you don't have to navigate a text menu to find.
  - bbatha 10y ago
    It also makes shortcuts discoverable! Just hit the alt-key and virtually every thing pops up with it hot key. Hitting alt in a standard windows app only tells me what menus are available, not which actions are available.
    - nitrogen 10y ago
      Ok, maybe shortcuts are discoverable, but actual actions no longer are. Not everyone finds the ribbon an improvement; I feel the need to point that out since so many comments appeared praising the awfully opaque ribbon.
      - andrepd 10y ago
        How so? Why are actions hidden in nested menus easier to find than in the ribbon?
        bashinator 10y ago
        Because the menus are words, describing the function of their contents at a glance.
        int_19h 10y ago
        So are Ribbon headers.
        dageshi 10y ago
        In my opinion yes. Or rather, Windows users have had decades being trained to find certain functionality under certain menu options to the degree that most will do it by second nature irrespective of the application they're in. The ribbon menu throws all that muscle memory away and leaves you trying to find it again in an interface that no other applications use. I don't frequently need to use office products but when I do I find them absolutely infuriating.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  The ribbon is probably the best example of "people are resistant to change". In retrospect, because I was grumpy about it too at the time. But once you get used to it, it's vastly superior in every conceivable way to the old UI.
  - Drdrdrq 10y ago
    Well, I am using it almost daily for years now and still hate it. So it probably depends on a person.
    - blakeyrat 10y ago
      It wasn't optimized for "people like it", it was optimized for ease-of-use and discoverability. You could simultaneously hate it with a passion, and also be 3 times more efficient at editing a document while using it, and that counts as a success.
      - Drdrdrq 10y ago
        No. I hate it because while ease-of-use is better, discoverability is much worse. I am constantly seeking answers to UI problems on Google. Also, how is it a success if I hate my tool with passion, no matter how efficient I am? We must have different value systems... :)
- perlgeek 10y ago
  When the ribbon works, which is most of the time, it's pretty good. When not, it can be a complete PITA. A few years ago I tried to change the scaling of an axis of a chart in Excel from linear to log, and it was so convoluted that I had to look up in the help each time I did it.
  - addicted 10y ago
    I guess the relevant question is whether this would have been easier if the ribbon didn't exist, and you had to do it through the menu bar. It appears to me that the issue here is that Excel makes scaling the axis of a chart convoluted. Not that the ribbon makes it harder than the regular menu bar.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  I sort of think the infrastructure is in mostly in place to allow for themes that largely mimic the ribbon. Optional, of course :-) The default should not be the ribbon, but there are aspects of the Ribbon LO could use. But it's funny - the Symphony stuff that was given to Apache by IBM, and which Apache integrated and we snagged and further fixed and are enhancing is in so many ways better than the Ribbon! The Sidebar could, IMO, be enhanced and turned into the Ribbon.
- addicted 10y ago
  Love the ribbon too. OO/LO/iWork have become unusable for me since the ribbon. The initial implementation of the ribbon sucked. It was too static, it didn't hide and took up a whole lot of space, and it didn't give you any pointers on KB shortcuts. It also took MS some time of gathering data and telemetry to improve the layout. And frankly, it took users some time to adjust to the change. The ribbon is much better now. But the people who like it, possibly still suffering from having to maybe defend it when it legitimately had flaws, are not as loud about it online.
bArray 10y ago
"Does the MS Office UI conform with the Windows UI guidelines ?" Definitely not. The ribbon style and circle menu are a different design universe entirely. I agree that moving things around was annoying. "As for 'unreliable' - i can't share this perspective; LibreOffice works for me; didn't have any problems with OpenOffice either - before i switched to LibreOffice. I switched because LibreOffice is supposed to have better support." The unreliability for me was a mixture of not such great support and occasional crashing. Libreoffice was much better. I originally moved from Microsoft office because I got tired of pirating the latest version. It was a hassle because of the time to download (I had a slow connection) and the risk of viruses each stage. The move to Linux was the final nail in the coffin for me. As time has gone on I have come to appreciate open software, which again makes Windows (or Apple) not an option for me.
- int_19h 10y ago
  Ribbon is part of Windows UX guidelines these days, and has been for a long time now.
  - bArray 10y ago
    Where else is it used? Admittedly it's been a while since I dirtied one of my machines with Windows.
    - int_19h 10y ago
      Most stock apps - e.g. Explorer, Paint, WordPad. It's part of Win32 API now, so it's readily available to any app: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd316910(v=vs.85).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd3...