10 ms·

Is it because there is a large surplus of awesome candidates these, that companies can afford to make them jump through any number of hoops? Or are software en

by pyb 10y ago

Is it because there is a large surplus of awesome candidates these, that companies can afford to make them jump through any number of hoops? Or are software engineers, in average, getting more arrogant these days ? (_genuine_ question I've had for some time now)

cheriot 10y ago
Interviewing can take up a noticeable number of developer hours precisely when a team needs more of them. I suspect they're trying to cut down on the number of full day interviews needed. Too often, it's clear within minutes that a person isn't a match. Or maybe they're reacting to how little we can learn from a single interview by adding more hoops. Either way, it's a broken system. If anyone has a solution, I'll build it :)
- lj3 10y ago
  Funny you should mention that. Are you aware with how Matasano interviews[0][1]? It sounds like they pretty much figured out a 'moneyball' strategy. But, like any other type of system, it took time to develop. Unfortunately, I don't see any companies going in that direction. Every company I've spoken to, from huge corporations to tiny startups, treat technical interviewing as an afterthought. Which can be funny and surreal in an Orwellian way, considering the big companies have very well defined systems for non-technical interviewing. So everything will be running like a swiss watch until it comes time to test your technical knowledge, then it's treated as one big unknowable wild card. [0]: Or used to interview. They were bought out by the NCC Group and I have no idea how they go about things. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7260087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7260087
  - cheriot 10y ago
    I've seen the challenges, but that comment is new to me. Thanks. "folkloric and irrational" is far too accurate!
dominotw 10y ago
Not quite sure myself as I am currently on the receiving end :D. I would say this though that, 4 screens, hackerrank, take home coding, onsite format is not limited to big tech companies. I've had to do that for local smaller shops too.
- pyb 10y ago
  What is your location?
  - dominotw 10y ago
    Chicago. But I've flown down to sfo, seattle couple of times. I seem to be able to not get past on-site interviews :/.
    - pyb 10y ago
      Anectodally, it seems to be a lot worse in the US. But why would it ? I would have thought the competition for great engineers is highest there. Humiliating them is not the best strategy...
      - titanomachy 10y ago
        The pay is high in the States. Many companies are willing to pay a steep premium for slightly stronger employees, and the candidates are more willing to jump through hoops to land a higher-paying job. Not the whole story of course, but might be a factor.
lj3 10y ago
I'm not sure arrogance factors in. If you compare interviews now with just five years ago it's like night and day. It used to be a short phone interview then an onsite. That's it. It was relatively quick and easy on both sides. It was also unreliable. The flood of unqualified candidates into the job pool has made the task of sifting through resumes and talking to potential candidates far more time consuming. The time requirement alone has made the old way of interviewing untenable. The hoops are a way for companies to limit their time investment and reduce perceived risk. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. It alienates the very candidates they want to attract while doing nothing to deter the unqualified and it isn't any more reliable at telling us who's qualified than the old method was.
- pyb 10y ago
  Agree that adding more tests and interview is self defeating, but I wouldn't be so sure that there are many more candidates? It's not like the number of CS students has gone up X00%. Visas are harder to come by as well. OTOH Mozilla is remote, so there have literally the whole world sending over CVs.
  - lj3 10y ago
    It's not just CS degree students who are applying. Code camps are pumping out junior programmers who are applying to every job listing they can find. It used to be you sifted through 10 resumes before finding 1 good one. I'm told that number has increased to 100 to find 1 good one. Now, I don't know for sure if that's hyperbole or not, but that's the impression I'm getting from talking to hiring managers.
    - dominotw 10y ago
      Def rings true . I interviewed with google last month. I met like ~20 people who were also interviewing at google at the hotel breakfast. Some of them said they have been prepping for the interview everyday for past 4 months ( didn't help with my confidence :)). Reception at google was filled with 100s of people waiting for their turn to be picked up. And this was just one building among of many, many buildings. Lady at the reception at Avis car rental told me that they get 100's of people coming everyday for interview at google. It was bizzare and surreal to experience 'interview industrial complex' first hand.

by pyb 10y ago

cheriot 10y ago

Interviewing can take up a noticeable number of developer hours precisely when a team needs more of them. I suspect they're trying to cut down on the number of full day interviews needed. Too often, it's clear within minutes that a person isn't a match. Or maybe they're reacting to how little we can learn from a single interview by adding more hoops. Either way, it's a broken system. If anyone has a solution, I'll build it :)

lj3 10y ago
Funny you should mention that. Are you aware with how Matasano interviews[0][1]? It sounds like they pretty much figured out a 'moneyball' strategy. But, like any other type of system, it took time to develop. Unfortunately, I don't see any companies going in that direction. Every company I've spoken to, from huge corporations to tiny startups, treat technical interviewing as an afterthought. Which can be funny and surreal in an Orwellian way, considering the big companies have very well defined systems for non-technical interviewing. So everything will be running like a swiss watch until it comes time to test your technical knowledge, then it's treated as one big unknowable wild card. [0]: Or used to interview. They were bought out by the NCC Group and I have no idea how they go about things. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7260087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7260087
- cheriot 10y ago
  I've seen the challenges, but that comment is new to me. Thanks. "folkloric and irrational" is far too accurate!

dominotw 10y ago

Not quite sure myself as I am currently on the receiving end :D. I would say this though that, 4 screens, hackerrank, take home coding, onsite format is not limited to big tech companies. I've had to do that for local smaller shops too.

pyb 10y ago
What is your location?
- dominotw 10y ago
  Chicago. But I've flown down to sfo, seattle couple of times. I seem to be able to not get past on-site interviews :/.
  - pyb 10y ago
    Anectodally, it seems to be a lot worse in the US. But why would it ? I would have thought the competition for great engineers is highest there. Humiliating them is not the best strategy...
    - titanomachy 10y ago
      The pay is high in the States. Many companies are willing to pay a steep premium for slightly stronger employees, and the candidates are more willing to jump through hoops to land a higher-paying job. Not the whole story of course, but might be a factor.

lj3 10y ago

I'm not sure arrogance factors in. If you compare interviews now with just five years ago it's like night and day. It used to be a short phone interview then an onsite. That's it. It was relatively quick and easy on both sides. It was also unreliable. The flood of unqualified candidates into the job pool has made the task of sifting through resumes and talking to potential candidates far more time consuming. The time requirement alone has made the old way of interviewing untenable. The hoops are a way for companies to limit their time investment and reduce perceived risk. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. It alienates the very candidates they want to attract while doing nothing to deter the unqualified and it isn't any more reliable at telling us who's qualified than the old method was.

pyb 10y ago
Agree that adding more tests and interview is self defeating, but I wouldn't be so sure that there are many more candidates? It's not like the number of CS students has gone up X00%. Visas are harder to come by as well. OTOH Mozilla is remote, so there have literally the whole world sending over CVs.
- lj3 10y ago
  It's not just CS degree students who are applying. Code camps are pumping out junior programmers who are applying to every job listing they can find. It used to be you sifted through 10 resumes before finding 1 good one. I'm told that number has increased to 100 to find 1 good one. Now, I don't know for sure if that's hyperbole or not, but that's the impression I'm getting from talking to hiring managers.
  - dominotw 10y ago
    Def rings true . I interviewed with google last month. I met like ~20 people who were also interviewing at google at the hotel breakfast. Some of them said they have been prepping for the interview everyday for past 4 months ( didn't help with my confidence :)). Reception at google was filled with 100s of people waiting for their turn to be picked up. And this was just one building among of many, many buildings. Lady at the reception at Avis car rental told me that they get 100's of people coming everyday for interview at google. It was bizzare and surreal to experience 'interview industrial complex' first hand.