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I can vouch this as I went to graduate school where I worked for 5 years at 8-10 hours/day including Saturday and Sunday for $12,000/year to get a PhD Well, th

I can vouch this as I went to graduate school where I worked for 5 years at 8-10 hours/day including Saturday and Sunday for $12,000/year to get a PhD Well, then don't do your PhD in the US. I did my PhD in the Netherlands, had a reasonable salary and a good work-life balance. I now work as a habilitant in Germany (roughly the equivalent of an assistant professor), it's the same: good salary, good balance. The primary problem in the Western/Northern European academic environment is getting a permanent position. So, I might end up in industry in the end ;).

ThePhysicist 10y ago
Same experience here: I did my PhD in France at a good research institute (CEA Saclay). The supervision was great as I was one of only three PhD students in a group of ten permanent researchers, so I could work with my supervisors every day. There was also a strong focus to keep within the three-year schedule, and a lot of opportunities to visit conferences and the like. In addition, a PhD is highly valued by companies in Germany (where I live now), so your higher starting salary usually makes up for the low income during your PhD. That said, doing a PhD for financial reasons is usually a bad idea. For me, a much better reason is that you can work on a deep (and interesting) problem for 3-5 years, becoming an expert in a given topic and training your gumption, which will help you to tackle difficult problems later in your life, even in unrelated fields. Compared to research work, most projects that you can do in industry are rather boring in comparison (there are exceptions of course). So, if you do a PhD, do it out of curiosity and not because of the title or the hope to make more money later.
- killaken2000 10y ago
  Are you an American citizen and did you know the language before you went. I would be interested to know what the process was to move from the US to France for a PhD.
  - ThePhysicist 10y ago
    I'm a German citizen, and I learned French in school, my level of proficiency was very low when I arrived though. Getting around using English was quite easy, and the application process was straightforward even with a German Diplom (M.Sc.). For an US degree you'll just have to make a translation and possibly have it's equivalence assessed, that shouldn't be too hard though. The UPMC (Paris VI) has a quite good PhD program for example, and is open to international students.
  - yodsanklai 10y ago
    Research labs are very international so as long as you speak English you can do a PhD pretty much anywhere. It's also pretty easy to get a visa for a PhD or a postdoc. As for the process, basically you need to hold a master degree and find a professor/researcher with enough money to hire you. Labs often advertise PhD positions on their websites. Finding a grant/supervisor is quite easy for a strong candidate. The critical part is too choose wisely the topic. Research tends to be very specialized and you may end up with a PhD that gives you few marketable skills.
killaken2000 10y ago
Are you an American citizen and did you know the language before you went. I would be interested to know what the process was to move from the US to the Netherlands for a PhD.
- dragandj 10y ago
  Most PhDs in Netherlands accept English speakers, and they all have many international students. When you find a position advertized, you can ask them about the procedure for non-EU citizens.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    This is also true for Scandinavian countries (and trivially true for the UK). I would guess most of Europe, really. But you probably need to learn a small bit of the local language just to shop for groceries etc. The country I would be most hesitant about is France, they really don't like speaking English, and most French PhD theses are still written in French. This is really idiotic, all it does is slow down the dissemination of research; some acquaintances who did their PhD in France were looking hard for a non-French external examiner of their PhD, which is the easiest loophole if you want to write the thesis in English.
    - yodsanklai 10y ago
      > The country I would be most hesitant about is France, they really don't like speaking English I believe it's a stereotype and it's certainly not the case in CS research labs. I did my PhD in a French research institution (INRIA). In my group, a majority of the people didn't speak French. And of course, PhD students could write and defend their thesis in English if they wanted to (I don't know if they had to find a non-French external examiner, but it's likely to be the case that some examiners are foreign anyway).
    - dragandj 10y ago
      This is only partly true, but even then, I wouldn't it call it idiotic. After all, can you defend your thesis in the US in French? You can't. So, why would it be idiotic for the French to expect theses at their unis to be defended in French, which is btw also an international language? It is not very pragmatic, for sure, but it has sense.
howandwhy 10y ago
Yea, it is easy when you are single and are from Europe or US. But for somebody like me who has lot of limitation like ailing parents at home, siblings to take care of and immigration issues then it gets difficult to get out of country. And sometimes you do not know that you are in a deep rabit hole unless you are 2-3 years down there. Then you realize you just grind your nose on ground for 2-3 more years and get done with it rather looking for somewhere better to start from 0.

ThePhysicist 10y ago

Same experience here: I did my PhD in France at a good research institute (CEA Saclay). The supervision was great as I was one of only three PhD students in a group of ten permanent researchers, so I could work with my supervisors every day. There was also a strong focus to keep within the three-year schedule, and a lot of opportunities to visit conferences and the like. In addition, a PhD is highly valued by companies in Germany (where I live now), so your higher starting salary usually makes up for the low income during your PhD. That said, doing a PhD for financial reasons is usually a bad idea. For me, a much better reason is that you can work on a deep (and interesting) problem for 3-5 years, becoming an expert in a given topic and training your gumption, which will help you to tackle difficult problems later in your life, even in unrelated fields. Compared to research work, most projects that you can do in industry are rather boring in comparison (there are exceptions of course). So, if you do a PhD, do it out of curiosity and not because of the title or the hope to make more money later.

killaken2000 10y ago
Are you an American citizen and did you know the language before you went. I would be interested to know what the process was to move from the US to France for a PhD.
- ThePhysicist 10y ago
  I'm a German citizen, and I learned French in school, my level of proficiency was very low when I arrived though. Getting around using English was quite easy, and the application process was straightforward even with a German Diplom (M.Sc.). For an US degree you'll just have to make a translation and possibly have it's equivalence assessed, that shouldn't be too hard though. The UPMC (Paris VI) has a quite good PhD program for example, and is open to international students.
- yodsanklai 10y ago
  Research labs are very international so as long as you speak English you can do a PhD pretty much anywhere. It's also pretty easy to get a visa for a PhD or a postdoc. As for the process, basically you need to hold a master degree and find a professor/researcher with enough money to hire you. Labs often advertise PhD positions on their websites. Finding a grant/supervisor is quite easy for a strong candidate. The critical part is too choose wisely the topic. Research tends to be very specialized and you may end up with a PhD that gives you few marketable skills.

killaken2000 10y ago

Are you an American citizen and did you know the language before you went. I would be interested to know what the process was to move from the US to the Netherlands for a PhD.

dragandj 10y ago
Most PhDs in Netherlands accept English speakers, and they all have many international students. When you find a position advertized, you can ask them about the procedure for non-EU citizens.
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  This is also true for Scandinavian countries (and trivially true for the UK). I would guess most of Europe, really. But you probably need to learn a small bit of the local language just to shop for groceries etc. The country I would be most hesitant about is France, they really don't like speaking English, and most French PhD theses are still written in French. This is really idiotic, all it does is slow down the dissemination of research; some acquaintances who did their PhD in France were looking hard for a non-French external examiner of their PhD, which is the easiest loophole if you want to write the thesis in English.
  - yodsanklai 10y ago
    > The country I would be most hesitant about is France, they really don't like speaking English I believe it's a stereotype and it's certainly not the case in CS research labs. I did my PhD in a French research institution (INRIA). In my group, a majority of the people didn't speak French. And of course, PhD students could write and defend their thesis in English if they wanted to (I don't know if they had to find a non-French external examiner, but it's likely to be the case that some examiners are foreign anyway).
  - dragandj 10y ago
    This is only partly true, but even then, I wouldn't it call it idiotic. After all, can you defend your thesis in the US in French? You can't. So, why would it be idiotic for the French to expect theses at their unis to be defended in French, which is btw also an international language? It is not very pragmatic, for sure, but it has sense.

howandwhy 10y ago

Yea, it is easy when you are single and are from Europe or US. But for somebody like me who has lot of limitation like ailing parents at home, siblings to take care of and immigration issues then it gets difficult to get out of country. And sometimes you do not know that you are in a deep rabit hole unless you are 2-3 years down there. Then you realize you just grind your nose on ground for 2-3 more years and get done with it rather looking for somewhere better to start from 0.