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it should be written as "Cheap Labor". I can vouch this as I went to graduate school where I worked for 5 years at 8-10 hours/day including Saturday and Sunday

it should be written as "Cheap Labor". I can vouch this as I went to graduate school where I worked for 5 years at 8-10 hours/day including Saturday and Sunday for $12,000/year to get a PhD in Biological Science. And it was in one of the most expensive state in US. So could not afford to start a family because of perpetual state of sharing apartment and not enough money and time to go out and find a partner. And at the end I was very delighted to get a post-doc position for $40,000 year at a small town. After working for few years I was burn out due to constant pressure/stress of writing grant to bring money instead of doing real research so ended of quitting science. Now working in a completely different field with much better work-life balance and great salary. Now a days every time I meet an aspirant scientist ready to jump for PhD, I have just one suggestion to them. If you can get into top 2-3 school then go. Else do not waste your time and energy.

deleted 10y ago
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howandwhy 10y ago
The fundamental principle about doing science has changed. It has come from becoming a true scientist(born with natural curiosity towards natures, physics, understanding and exploring fundamentals principles of physics, life and matter) to bread butter scientist where you are pigeon holed into a cubicle writing grants all day and tinkering a very narrow part of a huge field to collect as much data possible so that you can put it in your next grant proposal. Oh by the way, do not forget to teach undergrad, grade their papers and sprinkle some tenure pressure, department politics into it and your life as a scientist is complete.
- auxym 10y ago
  I don't know if you were downvoted because of the cynical tone, but that sounds pretty accurate in my experience. It's why I quit after a master's.
  - btdiehr 10y ago
    Academics spend a lot of time on the internet defending their poor decision of going into academia, as well as anyone who points out how obviously fruitless academia is. For most people it's nearly impossible to admit something they just dedicated a large portion of their life too was completely worthless. (standard disclaimer statement that of course there are exceptions to the trend.)
    - Noseshine 10y ago
      And your statement is something academics have shown empirically :) (I just find it slightly amusing, no point really) I think the most famous instance was that story about the cult whose prediction about the end didn't come true, and they ended up being even more convinced and made up all kinds of excuses instead of quitting (the cult).
    - letitgo12345 10y ago
      Sure if your only goal is to make money...I am a CS PhD and at least in this area, believe it or not, I really haven't met many academics who regretted their choices.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
- AnallyAnguished 10y ago
  That's because science was largely a pastime for indepently wealthy members their societies' elites. Science hasn't changed; middle class people just have access to it now.
estsauver 10y ago
My wife went to a #1/#2 school for her field (molecular cell bio.) It certainly didn't seem much better there.
- xapata 10y ago
  No, but the odds of things turning out the way she intended are just barely good enough at a top school that it might be rational.
- howandwhy 10y ago
  I agree it may not when compared to a top school for MBA or Computer Science. Still it opens more opportunity such as consulting in Big 3 or your boss has more contacts in pharma industry so there is a chance you will get some entry level opportunity in big pharma or biotech startups. But if you are from a middle tier state univ where you boss do research on "sleeping habit of frog or pink fluffly bunnies" then you are out of luck.
danieldk 10y ago
I can vouch this as I went to graduate school where I worked for 5 years at 8-10 hours/day including Saturday and Sunday for $12,000/year to get a PhD Well, then don't do your PhD in the US. I did my PhD in the Netherlands, had a reasonable salary and a good work-life balance. I now work as a habilitant in Germany (roughly the equivalent of an assistant professor), it's the same: good salary, good balance. The primary problem in the Western/Northern European academic environment is getting a permanent position. So, I might end up in industry in the end ;).
- ThePhysicist 10y ago
  Same experience here: I did my PhD in France at a good research institute (CEA Saclay). The supervision was great as I was one of only three PhD students in a group of ten permanent researchers, so I could work with my supervisors every day. There was also a strong focus to keep within the three-year schedule, and a lot of opportunities to visit conferences and the like. In addition, a PhD is highly valued by companies in Germany (where I live now), so your higher starting salary usually makes up for the low income during your PhD. That said, doing a PhD for financial reasons is usually a bad idea. For me, a much better reason is that you can work on a deep (and interesting) problem for 3-5 years, becoming an expert in a given topic and training your gumption, which will help you to tackle difficult problems later in your life, even in unrelated fields. Compared to research work, most projects that you can do in industry are rather boring in comparison (there are exceptions of course). So, if you do a PhD, do it out of curiosity and not because of the title or the hope to make more money later.
  - killaken2000 10y ago
    Are you an American citizen and did you know the language before you went. I would be interested to know what the process was to move from the US to France for a PhD.
    - ThePhysicist 10y ago
      I'm a German citizen, and I learned French in school, my level of proficiency was very low when I arrived though. Getting around using English was quite easy, and the application process was straightforward even with a German Diplom (M.Sc.). For an US degree you'll just have to make a translation and possibly have it's equivalence assessed, that shouldn't be too hard though. The UPMC (Paris VI) has a quite good PhD program for example, and is open to international students.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

howandwhy 10y ago

The fundamental principle about doing science has changed. It has come from becoming a true scientist(born with natural curiosity towards natures, physics, understanding and exploring fundamentals principles of physics, life and matter) to bread butter scientist where you are pigeon holed into a cubicle writing grants all day and tinkering a very narrow part of a huge field to collect as much data possible so that you can put it in your next grant proposal. Oh by the way, do not forget to teach undergrad, grade their papers and sprinkle some tenure pressure, department politics into it and your life as a scientist is complete.

auxym 10y ago
I don't know if you were downvoted because of the cynical tone, but that sounds pretty accurate in my experience. It's why I quit after a master's.
- btdiehr 10y ago
  Academics spend a lot of time on the internet defending their poor decision of going into academia, as well as anyone who points out how obviously fruitless academia is. For most people it's nearly impossible to admit something they just dedicated a large portion of their life too was completely worthless. (standard disclaimer statement that of course there are exceptions to the trend.)
  - Noseshine 10y ago
    And your statement is something academics have shown empirically :) (I just find it slightly amusing, no point really) I think the most famous instance was that story about the cult whose prediction about the end didn't come true, and they ended up being even more convinced and made up all kinds of excuses instead of quitting (the cult).
  - letitgo12345 10y ago
    Sure if your only goal is to make money...I am a CS PhD and at least in this area, believe it or not, I really haven't met many academics who regretted their choices.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
AnallyAnguished 10y ago
That's because science was largely a pastime for indepently wealthy members their societies' elites. Science hasn't changed; middle class people just have access to it now.

estsauver 10y ago

My wife went to a #1/#2 school for her field (molecular cell bio.) It certainly didn't seem much better there.

xapata 10y ago
No, but the odds of things turning out the way she intended are just barely good enough at a top school that it might be rational.
howandwhy 10y ago
I agree it may not when compared to a top school for MBA or Computer Science. Still it opens more opportunity such as consulting in Big 3 or your boss has more contacts in pharma industry so there is a chance you will get some entry level opportunity in big pharma or biotech startups. But if you are from a middle tier state univ where you boss do research on "sleeping habit of frog or pink fluffly bunnies" then you are out of luck.

danieldk 10y ago

I can vouch this as I went to graduate school where I worked for 5 years at 8-10 hours/day including Saturday and Sunday for $12,000/year to get a PhD Well, then don't do your PhD in the US. I did my PhD in the Netherlands, had a reasonable salary and a good work-life balance. I now work as a habilitant in Germany (roughly the equivalent of an assistant professor), it's the same: good salary, good balance. The primary problem in the Western/Northern European academic environment is getting a permanent position. So, I might end up in industry in the end ;).

ThePhysicist 10y ago
Same experience here: I did my PhD in France at a good research institute (CEA Saclay). The supervision was great as I was one of only three PhD students in a group of ten permanent researchers, so I could work with my supervisors every day. There was also a strong focus to keep within the three-year schedule, and a lot of opportunities to visit conferences and the like. In addition, a PhD is highly valued by companies in Germany (where I live now), so your higher starting salary usually makes up for the low income during your PhD. That said, doing a PhD for financial reasons is usually a bad idea. For me, a much better reason is that you can work on a deep (and interesting) problem for 3-5 years, becoming an expert in a given topic and training your gumption, which will help you to tackle difficult problems later in your life, even in unrelated fields. Compared to research work, most projects that you can do in industry are rather boring in comparison (there are exceptions of course). So, if you do a PhD, do it out of curiosity and not because of the title or the hope to make more money later.
- killaken2000 10y ago
  Are you an American citizen and did you know the language before you went. I would be interested to know what the process was to move from the US to France for a PhD.
  - ThePhysicist 10y ago
    I'm a German citizen, and I learned French in school, my level of proficiency was very low when I arrived though. Getting around using English was quite easy, and the application process was straightforward even with a German Diplom (M.Sc.). For an US degree you'll just have to make a translation and possibly have it's equivalence assessed, that shouldn't be too hard though. The UPMC (Paris VI) has a quite good PhD program for example, and is open to international students.