7 ms·

Phony currency used to fight bribes in India

81 points by robg 17y ago

cianestro 17y ago
It's always nice to see technocracy is alive and well.
samratjp 17y ago
Ingenious. Where can I get them for my next trip?
lionhearted 17y ago
Edit: I'm asking a serious question here - the article itself mentions that the poorest people aren't able to get access to birth certificates or get their home connected to municipal water unless they pay bribes they can't afford. This seems pretty brazenly criminal to me. And the death penalty is legal. So... Maybe a naive question - how hard would be to just have the government announce they're going to hang anyone who asks for a bribe, then make a big show about hanging 100 corrupt bureaucrats? Wouldn't that drastically cut corruption down?
- rjb 17y ago
  I think punitive measures generally do not work. What is great about this is that it breaks someones sub-conscience, snaps them out of their behavior (hopefully), at the very moment of corruption.
- sorbus 17y ago
  It would reduce corruption - temporarily, at least, even though the killings would probably end up being very political (a bad thing! Consider how many would take it as a chance to get rid of their enemies). It would also scare bunches of people, and corruption would merely go underground as long as the hangings were enforced, before reappearing when enforcement slips. Not to mention the difficulties with getting the government - assumed to be filled with corruption - to do it. It is basically infinitely easier to educate the populace, make them refuse to give bribes when asked, and give them a way of responding to bribes which both refuses to do so, lets them feel part of an anti-bribe community, and reminds the officials that bribes are illegal. Also, I doubt that anyone would argue that murdering anyone who asks for a bribe is better than eliminating the environment which makes people feel like they can ask for bribes.
- tokenadult 17y ago
  how hard would be to just have the government announce they're going to hang anyone who asks for a bribe, then make a big show about hanging 100 corrupt bureaucrats? Wouldn't that drastically cut corruption down? Thanks for asking a specific factual question. The policy you mention has not worked in China, where it is widely seen as a way to kill off lower-level officials who are insufficiently cooperative with the highest-level officials. China regularly has publicly announced executions for corruption, but it still has pervasive corruption.
  - blueag 17y ago
    From what I heard the corruption in China has decreased due to mulit-prong approach to fight it there. Public execution/long jail, increased wage, more media exposure, forced financial disclosure, anti-corruption agencies in multi-levels with broad power, and other measures. It helps that the government takes anti-corruption up as one of the top priorities in its agenda.
- known 17y ago
  Always carry a licensed Pistol for your personal safety if you wanted to fight corruption in India http://to./3h22 http://to./3h22
- dagw 17y ago
  How will you pick the 100 corrupt bureaucrats? By lottery or by targeting your political enemies? Would you really hang your nephew's corrupt best friend, or would you target the guy most likely to be challenge to your party in the next local election (despite his crimes being relatively minor)? The end result wouldn't be a cut down in corruption, it would just make the corrupt more careful about covering their backs.
- nikhilgk 17y ago
  Capital punishment, though legal, has been reserved for the ["rarest of the rare"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_India#Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_India#Law) cases by the Supreme Court of India. There have been instances when even serial killers have been pardoned. So it may not even be legally possible to pass such a law.
  - jsharpe 17y ago
    I took "hanging" metaphorically. Surely jail time or a heavy fine would serve a similar purpose?
- sarvesh 17y ago
  There is more to this than what meets the eye. First most of these bureaucrats are underpaid by the government. They can hardly make ends meet, especially so when they have to feed a family of five or six and educate their children. Schools, colleges aren't cheap anymore in India. If you need good education you got to pay up large amounts of money. The government doesn't have any good investment plans for their employees to save for these things. Traditionally, although this is changing with the current generation, it is only the male that works in the family. In terms of economics this just doesn't work for a family anymore in the cities. It is extremely unlikely that these people can work a second job. In some cases the government itself has laws that would prevent them from doing so. I am not trying to defend bribery. Fixing it is not going to be as easy as hanging bureaucrats. If that were the case most elected representatives wouldn't be alive. There is no easy solution. What the article describes is good for the newspaper but not a viable solution to the problem which ingrained very deeply in the society.
- dnsworks 17y ago
  While hanging out on LiveJournal's Bangalore forum, I've read several stories that make me think even the threat of legal prosecution in India can be mostly meaningless, with people taking years just to get a trial, and afterwards waiting years before there is a spot in prison for them.
- netcan 17y ago
  Generally, wide enforcement with lenient penalties works better than narrow enforcement with crazy hard penalties. catching 100,000 corrupt officials and putting them in jail for 6 months after a hefty fine and loss of position would probably work better.
  - lehmannro 17y ago
    And how would you make up for the sudden loss of 100,000 bureaucrats? I don't have to think too hard to come up with a number of scenarios where this policy will just make things even worse.
tokenadult 17y ago
Discussed previously on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1077548 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1077548 Again, I'm finding that SearchYC recently is better at finding articles on the same subject (this earlier one from a different source) than a site-restricted Google search is.
by 17y ago
It makes me think of the Salt March http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Satyagraha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Satyagraha where many small acts of non-violent protest brought about great change.
ShabbyDoo 17y ago
A reduction in the bribe amount bureaucrats are willing to pay for the right to receive bribes themselves would be a great indicator of success. As an aside, I'm an American who worked last week in the US with a guy from my company's Indian office. Because India apparently has high import duties on watches, he decided this trip would be a good opportunity to purchase a watch for his wife. When he asked me where to to to buy a Swiss Army watch, I suggested Amazon.com. I'm a Prime member and offered to use my account so he could get free 2nd day shipping. I ordered the watch while he observed. "That's all you had to do?" I hadn't even used 1-click! When it shipped, I emailed him the tracking number. Over the next couple of days, he checked UPS.com in semi-disbelief and seemed amazed when the watch showed up as expected. Apparently, according to my co-worker, there's little online purchasing of physical goods in India. While credit cards are becoming increasingly common, delivery systems are seen as too corrupt to be trusted. "You'll order a watch, but only an empty box will be delivered." It probably also doesn't help that a product purchased by a middle-class Indian might be worth months of lower-class wages. It's the hidden, non-physical infrastructure that's so important. Layers and layers of laws, enforcement, responsible government, etc. are required to produce a system where an expensive item can be delivered to my house reliably.
- samratjp 17y ago
  What that guy said is true. Indian customs is terrible. And tracking anything in India is a crazy challenge - that includes people as well. The biggest thing that pisses me off every time I travel there is the inter-state crossings where you have to pay a small "toll." Nothing like your 50¢ auto-vending one. The most interesting bribe chain is perhaps the driver license (DMV) anything. The bribes for those are so bad that a significant percentage of drivers even avoid getting a license. And if you are getting a car license, you will most likely need a broker - as in you would need to learn to drive from a "driving school," which will broker for your license at a "fee." The best/sad part is that upon bribery you don't even have to drive to pass the test. Of course, this may not be everywhere, but just speaking from observation. As about bribery punishment, there have been literally thousands of movies with the theme.
  - 17y ago
motters 17y ago
It's not only in India where bribery of government officials and bureaucrats is commonplace, so this idea might spread elsewhere.
chaosprophet 17y ago
The best part about this is that you don't have to go find someone to get these notes. If you have a printer, you can just print them out yourself, how many ever you may want. I'm a bit sceptical of all the success stories though. I'm going to try this with the local traffic policeman the next time he pulls me up, and check his reaction.
- dustingetz 17y ago
  you mean, you're going to try the bribe notes in india?
  - chaosprophet 17y ago
    Yeah. Probably the most frequently bribed people in India would be traffic cops on the beat. They confiscate your keys and won't hand them back until you pay them.
kingsley_20 17y ago
Printing Ghandi's mug on every single bill hasn't worked to shame anybody yet, so I'm very surprised that this works. Happy that it seems to though.
- DennisP 17y ago
  It might be more fear than shame...the note is a signal that the person is resolute, prepared, and part of a larger movement.
- FraaJad 17y ago
  s/Ghandi/Gandhi/g
dnsworks 17y ago
India is so cute sometimes I want to pinch it's cheeks.
yason 17y ago
There are both low-level and high-level corruption. Low-level corruption is the naive version that is handing over actual notes to officials to have small things get through the system. High-level corruption is a lot more subtle and transparent than asking for tea money, circling around anywhere where any people have some political power. The high-level kind of corruption is firmly rooted in western countries as well. It might actually be easier to fight the low-level corruption because the tea money is clearly and undeniably out there, and such blatant bribery is easy to judge. On the other hand the high-level corruption isn't supposed to even exist. The status quo will tell us that there's very limited corruption in many western countries. Further, no physical notes ever change owners but instead agreements, benefits, rewards, slices of power, changes of opinion, and political agendas get from one side to the other. And all that can be put under the cover of public relations as usual. It's just public relations between those who have money and an agenda and those who have political or journalistic or whatever power. Seemingly everything is immaculate. In reality, it's as dirty as it can be.
rao 17y ago
I like the way author addresses "non governmental organization" (NGO) as "good-government organization"

81 points by robg 17y ago

cianestro 17y ago

It's always nice to see technocracy is alive and well.

samratjp 17y ago

Ingenious. Where can I get them for my next trip?

lionhearted 17y ago

Edit: I'm asking a serious question here - the article itself mentions that the poorest people aren't able to get access to birth certificates or get their home connected to municipal water unless they pay bribes they can't afford. This seems pretty brazenly criminal to me. And the death penalty is legal. So... Maybe a naive question - how hard would be to just have the government announce they're going to hang anyone who asks for a bribe, then make a big show about hanging 100 corrupt bureaucrats? Wouldn't that drastically cut corruption down?

rjb 17y ago
I think punitive measures generally do not work. What is great about this is that it breaks someones sub-conscience, snaps them out of their behavior (hopefully), at the very moment of corruption.
sorbus 17y ago
It would reduce corruption - temporarily, at least, even though the killings would probably end up being very political (a bad thing! Consider how many would take it as a chance to get rid of their enemies). It would also scare bunches of people, and corruption would merely go underground as long as the hangings were enforced, before reappearing when enforcement slips. Not to mention the difficulties with getting the government - assumed to be filled with corruption - to do it. It is basically infinitely easier to educate the populace, make them refuse to give bribes when asked, and give them a way of responding to bribes which both refuses to do so, lets them feel part of an anti-bribe community, and reminds the officials that bribes are illegal. Also, I doubt that anyone would argue that murdering anyone who asks for a bribe is better than eliminating the environment which makes people feel like they can ask for bribes.
tokenadult 17y ago
how hard would be to just have the government announce they're going to hang anyone who asks for a bribe, then make a big show about hanging 100 corrupt bureaucrats? Wouldn't that drastically cut corruption down? Thanks for asking a specific factual question. The policy you mention has not worked in China, where it is widely seen as a way to kill off lower-level officials who are insufficiently cooperative with the highest-level officials. China regularly has publicly announced executions for corruption, but it still has pervasive corruption.
- blueag 17y ago
  From what I heard the corruption in China has decreased due to mulit-prong approach to fight it there. Public execution/long jail, increased wage, more media exposure, forced financial disclosure, anti-corruption agencies in multi-levels with broad power, and other measures. It helps that the government takes anti-corruption up as one of the top priorities in its agenda.
known 17y ago
Always carry a licensed Pistol for your personal safety if you wanted to fight corruption in India http://to./3h22 http://to./3h22
dagw 17y ago
How will you pick the 100 corrupt bureaucrats? By lottery or by targeting your political enemies? Would you really hang your nephew's corrupt best friend, or would you target the guy most likely to be challenge to your party in the next local election (despite his crimes being relatively minor)? The end result wouldn't be a cut down in corruption, it would just make the corrupt more careful about covering their backs.
nikhilgk 17y ago
Capital punishment, though legal, has been reserved for the ["rarest of the rare"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_India#Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_India#Law) cases by the Supreme Court of India. There have been instances when even serial killers have been pardoned. So it may not even be legally possible to pass such a law.
- jsharpe 17y ago
  I took "hanging" metaphorically. Surely jail time or a heavy fine would serve a similar purpose?
sarvesh 17y ago
There is more to this than what meets the eye. First most of these bureaucrats are underpaid by the government. They can hardly make ends meet, especially so when they have to feed a family of five or six and educate their children. Schools, colleges aren't cheap anymore in India. If you need good education you got to pay up large amounts of money. The government doesn't have any good investment plans for their employees to save for these things. Traditionally, although this is changing with the current generation, it is only the male that works in the family. In terms of economics this just doesn't work for a family anymore in the cities. It is extremely unlikely that these people can work a second job. In some cases the government itself has laws that would prevent them from doing so. I am not trying to defend bribery. Fixing it is not going to be as easy as hanging bureaucrats. If that were the case most elected representatives wouldn't be alive. There is no easy solution. What the article describes is good for the newspaper but not a viable solution to the problem which ingrained very deeply in the society.
dnsworks 17y ago
While hanging out on LiveJournal's Bangalore forum, I've read several stories that make me think even the threat of legal prosecution in India can be mostly meaningless, with people taking years just to get a trial, and afterwards waiting years before there is a spot in prison for them.
netcan 17y ago
Generally, wide enforcement with lenient penalties works better than narrow enforcement with crazy hard penalties. catching 100,000 corrupt officials and putting them in jail for 6 months after a hefty fine and loss of position would probably work better.
- lehmannro 17y ago
  And how would you make up for the sudden loss of 100,000 bureaucrats? I don't have to think too hard to come up with a number of scenarios where this policy will just make things even worse.

tokenadult 17y ago

Discussed previously on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1077548 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1077548 Again, I'm finding that SearchYC recently is better at finding articles on the same subject (this earlier one from a different source) than a site-restricted Google search is.

by 17y ago

It makes me think of the Salt March http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Satyagraha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Satyagraha where many small acts of non-violent protest brought about great change.

ShabbyDoo 17y ago

A reduction in the bribe amount bureaucrats are willing to pay for the right to receive bribes themselves would be a great indicator of success. As an aside, I'm an American who worked last week in the US with a guy from my company's Indian office. Because India apparently has high import duties on watches, he decided this trip would be a good opportunity to purchase a watch for his wife. When he asked me where to to to buy a Swiss Army watch, I suggested Amazon.com. I'm a Prime member and offered to use my account so he could get free 2nd day shipping. I ordered the watch while he observed. "That's all you had to do?" I hadn't even used 1-click! When it shipped, I emailed him the tracking number. Over the next couple of days, he checked UPS.com in semi-disbelief and seemed amazed when the watch showed up as expected. Apparently, according to my co-worker, there's little online purchasing of physical goods in India. While credit cards are becoming increasingly common, delivery systems are seen as too corrupt to be trusted. "You'll order a watch, but only an empty box will be delivered." It probably also doesn't help that a product purchased by a middle-class Indian might be worth months of lower-class wages. It's the hidden, non-physical infrastructure that's so important. Layers and layers of laws, enforcement, responsible government, etc. are required to produce a system where an expensive item can be delivered to my house reliably.

samratjp 17y ago
What that guy said is true. Indian customs is terrible. And tracking anything in India is a crazy challenge - that includes people as well. The biggest thing that pisses me off every time I travel there is the inter-state crossings where you have to pay a small "toll." Nothing like your 50¢ auto-vending one. The most interesting bribe chain is perhaps the driver license (DMV) anything. The bribes for those are so bad that a significant percentage of drivers even avoid getting a license. And if you are getting a car license, you will most likely need a broker - as in you would need to learn to drive from a "driving school," which will broker for your license at a "fee." The best/sad part is that upon bribery you don't even have to drive to pass the test. Of course, this may not be everywhere, but just speaking from observation. As about bribery punishment, there have been literally thousands of movies with the theme.
- 17y ago

motters 17y ago

It's not only in India where bribery of government officials and bureaucrats is commonplace, so this idea might spread elsewhere.

chaosprophet 17y ago

The best part about this is that you don't have to go find someone to get these notes. If you have a printer, you can just print them out yourself, how many ever you may want. I'm a bit sceptical of all the success stories though. I'm going to try this with the local traffic policeman the next time he pulls me up, and check his reaction.

dustingetz 17y ago
you mean, you're going to try the bribe notes in india?
- chaosprophet 17y ago
  Yeah. Probably the most frequently bribed people in India would be traffic cops on the beat. They confiscate your keys and won't hand them back until you pay them.

kingsley_20 17y ago

Printing Ghandi's mug on every single bill hasn't worked to shame anybody yet, so I'm very surprised that this works. Happy that it seems to though.

DennisP 17y ago
It might be more fear than shame...the note is a signal that the person is resolute, prepared, and part of a larger movement.
FraaJad 17y ago
s/Ghandi/Gandhi/g

dnsworks 17y ago

India is so cute sometimes I want to pinch it's cheeks.

yason 17y ago

There are both low-level and high-level corruption. Low-level corruption is the naive version that is handing over actual notes to officials to have small things get through the system. High-level corruption is a lot more subtle and transparent than asking for tea money, circling around anywhere where any people have some political power. The high-level kind of corruption is firmly rooted in western countries as well. It might actually be easier to fight the low-level corruption because the tea money is clearly and undeniably out there, and such blatant bribery is easy to judge. On the other hand the high-level corruption isn't supposed to even exist. The status quo will tell us that there's very limited corruption in many western countries. Further, no physical notes ever change owners but instead agreements, benefits, rewards, slices of power, changes of opinion, and political agendas get from one side to the other. And all that can be put under the cover of public relations as usual. It's just public relations between those who have money and an agenda and those who have political or journalistic or whatever power. Seemingly everything is immaculate. In reality, it's as dirty as it can be.

rao 17y ago

I like the way author addresses "non governmental organization" (NGO) as "good-government organization"