5 ms·

Dude, Where's Our Car ?

28 points by rams 17y ago

rdl 17y ago
I still don't understand the hyperfocus on cost savings without looking to increasing income. For a startup, saving costs allows you more time to try to develop product-market fit and thus increase income. In the long run I'd far prefer a $10m revenue, $1m costs business to a $100k revenue, $10k costs business, assuming I have the same percentage ownership. Same thing with life -- if I can make much more money by living in a place like SF or NYC, it's more tempting than living in the midwest and making much less. iPods still cost the same in NYC and rural Iowa.
- shaddi 17y ago
  I think it's different when you're talking about a family with no income due to not being able to find a job. This is about stretching every dollar because there aren't enough to cover basic needs (like rent), and about re-evaluating whether certain expenses are really necessary. Not sure what you're referring to with that last sentence -- this family already lives in NoCal.
- Mz 17y ago
  There's a recession on. For many people, cutting costs is immediately do-able but making more money (ie getting another job after you lost yours) is proving not to be. You have to survive until that new job comes around.
- dnsworks 17y ago
  Then maybe it's time to take an economics class, and go out into the real world, because in the real world, cities are far more expensive than farmland due to increased services. And in the real world, most people do not have the opportunities nor the skills or mindset to easily increase their income.
Tichy 17y ago
Personally I hate cars and consider it a luxury to be able to get by without one. Living in the suburbs and going everywhere by car sounds like hell to me. I think in the future it will seem odd that we give so much space to the ugliness and pollution caused by cars. Just as it seems odd to us that people just used to dump their shit on the streets.
- sailormoon 17y ago
  Well, I love cars and like having one at my disposal. But yeah, driving to work would be awful, especially if it was more than a few kilometres. I can't fathom why some seem to think it's preferable. Personally I won't take a job that's more than a 20 minute train ride from the station 2 minutes from my apartment, and I resent losing even that amount of time. A hour-long commute in gridlocked traffic would drive me nuts. Investment in public transport is expensive, sure, but it's better than the other option - forcing the costs to the individual level, where everything is far less efficient, not least in lost time.
- robryan 17y ago
  Really depends where you live, in some places it's not really practical to get around everywhere you need to go without a car, either that or it takes a large amount of time longer. For example my girlfriends would take about 2 hours to get to with a combination of trains and a walk yet takes me about 20 minutes to drive.
  - kscaldef 17y ago
    How long does it take to bike? I find that often the issue is the infrequency or inconvenience of public transit routes, not that there's any inherent obstacle to traveling without a car.
    - Timothee 17y ago
      That's my main problem. I would rather take public transportation, but by car it takes me 35-60 minutes depending on traffic, against at least an hour and a half. So, total time is a factor, as well as restricted schedules. (i.e. no options after a certain time) On the other hand, the answer to this might be to find a job where public transportation is an option. (near future plan)
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
    - 17y ago
gorenflo 17y ago
I'm torn on the whole car thing. On one hand, I'm a born suburbanite who grew up with a car and have had one nearly my entire adult life. One the other hand, they are expensive and complicated and getting more so by the minute. I really don't want all that electronic baloney on my car. A car that relies on software - hmm. Not so sure about that. I'm looking for similar mobility and convenience offered by a car with less complication and expense. I wish carsharing was more widely available.
- kscaldef 17y ago
  motorcycle / scooter? Or just a bike with panniers?
  - gorenflo 17y ago
    yeah, bike. should use it more.
- protomyth 17y ago
  As robryan said above, it really depends on where you live. I am currently doing contract work in ND, so a car is needed (motorcycles are garaged 6 months of the year, no public transport, apt 40 miles from work (close as I could get)). Further, you need something in relatively good maintenance, because getting stranded could be very bad. Electric is also not an option (too long drive during day, renting, no garage / recharge area). I don't think you can escape software these days. Down south, motorcycles might be a better buy. If you are in an urban area, there are companies that sell electric vehicles. They won't do highway speeds, but are rated for in town use.
- Mz 17y ago
  FWIW: I grew up in the 'burbs and currently live (without a car) in an apartment in the 'burbs, not all that far from the neighborhood I grew up in. As a kid, I hated my hometown and wanted nothing but out. I did manage to get out for 2 decades by marrying a career soldier but ended up coming back during my divorce (to live with family while job hunting, not because I had any desire to be here). I am currently contemplating & researching a possible move to a more walkable neighborhood closer to downtown and it has caused me a lot of food for thought about my perceptions of the city I grew up in -- including the fact that I didn't actually grow up in the city at all, I grew up in the 'burbs and my family had as little as possible to do with the city itself. One thing that has occurred to me is that going downtown (by car, of course) was always dreaded because of the traffic, alien culture, lack of parking, fear of having the car vandalized (or other crime), etc. But if I live closer to downtown, in a more walkable neighborhood with better bus service, all of those concerns disappear: Parking is not needed, there is no car to advertise my wealth or social status or get vandalized/stolen, etc.
kulkarnic 17y ago
I wonder if people are missing the bigger point here- this isn't just about selling your car, it's about understanding your real needs and living within them. Few people have the courage to do this. Fewer still will resist going back to their old over-indulgent ways (spring water et al) once times are good again.
- mbubb 17y ago
  I agree there is a virtue to living within ones means. Having as small a 'footprint' as possible - carbon or otherwise. I probably first entertained this idea after reading translations of Buddhist texts or things like Merton's "Saying of the Desert Fathers". But for much of my life this was a fuzzy idea like most liberal thoughts something to declaim with out really applying. In my mind it took the form of a clean aesthetic - clean, Zen-inspired, Danish modernist work and living spaces. (Which couldnt be farther from the current reality of a 1000sq' apartment with my wife and two boys.) When I first became conscious of GNU/FSF and Open Source this became a bit more concrete. Before I was able to get Linux working on whatever hardware I could find, it was interesting to me because of its economical and simple design which lent itself to self-reliance and control. I've tried in little ways to wean myself of a certain style of spending/ consumption. Less Starbucks, double edged safety razors instead of plastic, public transit and walking instead of car - but I am far from an example to anyone. But the idea that "less is better than more" would almost seem anti-American up until the past few years. To me it always felt right. So many of our illnesses in the US are ones of over consumption - petroleum, hydrogenated oils, corn syrup, etc. It is hard for me to say if this is merely a aesthetic choice or also an ethical one. It seems to me that it is but I have a hard time formulating a convincing argument. I am not sure myself. The impact of less and less consumption could hit the service industry and further reduce jobs. If we really lived within our means what would result? On a tangent I saw a fun movie last night with James Cogburn and Rod Steiger - "Duck, You Sucker!" also called "Fist full of Dynamite" in Italian. Sergio Leone direction and Morricone score. Much of it corny and implausible but fun nevertheless. Steiger plays a semi-literate Mexican peasant who at one point blurts out "revolutions are started by those who read and the ones who dont read suffer through them..."
mcantelon 17y ago
Cycling culture is on the rise. Go to a place like Tokyo and you'll see men in suits biking, women in high heels biking, etc. There are massive bike parking lots and a wide array of bicycle magazines catering to different lifestyles.

28 points by rams 17y ago

rdl 17y ago

I still don't understand the hyperfocus on cost savings without looking to increasing income. For a startup, saving costs allows you more time to try to develop product-market fit and thus increase income. In the long run I'd far prefer a $10m revenue, $1m costs business to a $100k revenue, $10k costs business, assuming I have the same percentage ownership. Same thing with life -- if I can make much more money by living in a place like SF or NYC, it's more tempting than living in the midwest and making much less. iPods still cost the same in NYC and rural Iowa.

shaddi 17y ago
I think it's different when you're talking about a family with no income due to not being able to find a job. This is about stretching every dollar because there aren't enough to cover basic needs (like rent), and about re-evaluating whether certain expenses are really necessary. Not sure what you're referring to with that last sentence -- this family already lives in NoCal.
Mz 17y ago
There's a recession on. For many people, cutting costs is immediately do-able but making more money (ie getting another job after you lost yours) is proving not to be. You have to survive until that new job comes around.
dnsworks 17y ago
Then maybe it's time to take an economics class, and go out into the real world, because in the real world, cities are far more expensive than farmland due to increased services. And in the real world, most people do not have the opportunities nor the skills or mindset to easily increase their income.

Tichy 17y ago

Personally I hate cars and consider it a luxury to be able to get by without one. Living in the suburbs and going everywhere by car sounds like hell to me. I think in the future it will seem odd that we give so much space to the ugliness and pollution caused by cars. Just as it seems odd to us that people just used to dump their shit on the streets.

sailormoon 17y ago
Well, I love cars and like having one at my disposal. But yeah, driving to work would be awful, especially if it was more than a few kilometres. I can't fathom why some seem to think it's preferable. Personally I won't take a job that's more than a 20 minute train ride from the station 2 minutes from my apartment, and I resent losing even that amount of time. A hour-long commute in gridlocked traffic would drive me nuts. Investment in public transport is expensive, sure, but it's better than the other option - forcing the costs to the individual level, where everything is far less efficient, not least in lost time.
robryan 17y ago
Really depends where you live, in some places it's not really practical to get around everywhere you need to go without a car, either that or it takes a large amount of time longer. For example my girlfriends would take about 2 hours to get to with a combination of trains and a walk yet takes me about 20 minutes to drive.
- kscaldef 17y ago
  How long does it take to bike? I find that often the issue is the infrequency or inconvenience of public transit routes, not that there's any inherent obstacle to traveling without a car.
  - Timothee 17y ago
    That's my main problem. I would rather take public transportation, but by car it takes me 35-60 minutes depending on traffic, against at least an hour and a half. So, total time is a factor, as well as restricted schedules. (i.e. no options after a certain time) On the other hand, the answer to this might be to find a job where public transportation is an option. (near future plan)
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
  - 17y ago

gorenflo 17y ago

I'm torn on the whole car thing. On one hand, I'm a born suburbanite who grew up with a car and have had one nearly my entire adult life. One the other hand, they are expensive and complicated and getting more so by the minute. I really don't want all that electronic baloney on my car. A car that relies on software - hmm. Not so sure about that. I'm looking for similar mobility and convenience offered by a car with less complication and expense. I wish carsharing was more widely available.

kscaldef 17y ago
motorcycle / scooter? Or just a bike with panniers?
- gorenflo 17y ago
  yeah, bike. should use it more.
protomyth 17y ago
As robryan said above, it really depends on where you live. I am currently doing contract work in ND, so a car is needed (motorcycles are garaged 6 months of the year, no public transport, apt 40 miles from work (close as I could get)). Further, you need something in relatively good maintenance, because getting stranded could be very bad. Electric is also not an option (too long drive during day, renting, no garage / recharge area). I don't think you can escape software these days. Down south, motorcycles might be a better buy. If you are in an urban area, there are companies that sell electric vehicles. They won't do highway speeds, but are rated for in town use.
Mz 17y ago
FWIW: I grew up in the 'burbs and currently live (without a car) in an apartment in the 'burbs, not all that far from the neighborhood I grew up in. As a kid, I hated my hometown and wanted nothing but out. I did manage to get out for 2 decades by marrying a career soldier but ended up coming back during my divorce (to live with family while job hunting, not because I had any desire to be here). I am currently contemplating & researching a possible move to a more walkable neighborhood closer to downtown and it has caused me a lot of food for thought about my perceptions of the city I grew up in -- including the fact that I didn't actually grow up in the city at all, I grew up in the 'burbs and my family had as little as possible to do with the city itself. One thing that has occurred to me is that going downtown (by car, of course) was always dreaded because of the traffic, alien culture, lack of parking, fear of having the car vandalized (or other crime), etc. But if I live closer to downtown, in a more walkable neighborhood with better bus service, all of those concerns disappear: Parking is not needed, there is no car to advertise my wealth or social status or get vandalized/stolen, etc.

kulkarnic 17y ago

I wonder if people are missing the bigger point here- this isn't just about selling your car, it's about understanding your real needs and living within them. Few people have the courage to do this. Fewer still will resist going back to their old over-indulgent ways (spring water et al) once times are good again.

mbubb 17y ago
I agree there is a virtue to living within ones means. Having as small a 'footprint' as possible - carbon or otherwise. I probably first entertained this idea after reading translations of Buddhist texts or things like Merton's "Saying of the Desert Fathers". But for much of my life this was a fuzzy idea like most liberal thoughts something to declaim with out really applying. In my mind it took the form of a clean aesthetic - clean, Zen-inspired, Danish modernist work and living spaces. (Which couldnt be farther from the current reality of a 1000sq' apartment with my wife and two boys.) When I first became conscious of GNU/FSF and Open Source this became a bit more concrete. Before I was able to get Linux working on whatever hardware I could find, it was interesting to me because of its economical and simple design which lent itself to self-reliance and control. I've tried in little ways to wean myself of a certain style of spending/ consumption. Less Starbucks, double edged safety razors instead of plastic, public transit and walking instead of car - but I am far from an example to anyone. But the idea that "less is better than more" would almost seem anti-American up until the past few years. To me it always felt right. So many of our illnesses in the US are ones of over consumption - petroleum, hydrogenated oils, corn syrup, etc. It is hard for me to say if this is merely a aesthetic choice or also an ethical one. It seems to me that it is but I have a hard time formulating a convincing argument. I am not sure myself. The impact of less and less consumption could hit the service industry and further reduce jobs. If we really lived within our means what would result? On a tangent I saw a fun movie last night with James Cogburn and Rod Steiger - "Duck, You Sucker!" also called "Fist full of Dynamite" in Italian. Sergio Leone direction and Morricone score. Much of it corny and implausible but fun nevertheless. Steiger plays a semi-literate Mexican peasant who at one point blurts out "revolutions are started by those who read and the ones who dont read suffer through them..."

mcantelon 17y ago

Cycling culture is on the rise. Go to a place like Tokyo and you'll see men in suits biking, women in high heels biking, etc. There are massive bike parking lots and a wide array of bicycle magazines catering to different lifestyles.