5 ms·

No, you didn't. You proposed using the "invisible hand of the free market". I told you why most of us wouldn't trust that idea.

by st3v3r 10y ago

SamReidHughes 10y ago
The text you're quoting is nowhere in this thread... Look, teacher pay is in control of the government, not the market. And nurse pay and nursing demand has already had demonstrable impact on students' selection of what to study. (You can observe this by looking at the real world.) Is there a particular hypothesis that you're arguing against? Is it that increasing pay won't attract students to the line of study? Do you disagree with the equation (Teaching Budget) = (Teacher Pay) * (Number Of Teachers) in a material way? In fact I ... wait a second. Me: > I proposed increasing their pay, You: > No, you didn't. Me (upthread): > let their salaries increase. Well now, looks like I did. (You can observe this by looking at the real world.)
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  You two are talking past each other. The response to your "let their salaries increase" pointed out that there are districts (and counties and states) where this simply does not and can not happen given how government policies are structured. Much of that the result of quite deliberate "starve-the-beast" anti-tax policies, but also frequently a simply quite inadequate economic base. In the deep south of the US, say, the state of Mississippi, you have a de-facto segregated school system. Whites, even poor whites, attend private schools, largely religious, known as "Segregation Academies". Public schools are almost wholly the domain of blacks. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/in-southern-towns-segregation-academies-are-still-going-strong/266207/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/in-south... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_segregation_in_Sunflower_County,_Mississippi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_segregation_in_Sun... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy Markets don't exist independent of power constructs, a fact explicitly recognised by Adam Smith: "Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power." Much of Smith's Wealth of Nations is about those dynamics. This thread reads as if two ideological agendas are being pushed on the other, rather than some seeking of greater truth. I'm finding your line of argument the less pesuasive and less sincere.
  - SamReidHughes 10y ago
    You are basing your theory of ideological agendas on the other guy's histrionics. I don't think the question, "Should we pay teachers more, or should we instead trick more teenagers into taking loans," is one that involves debating whether or not you believe in capitalism, or that needs you posting a bunch of links about segregation all of the sudden.
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      Perhaps you might care to revisit your comments above then and clarify what it is you're arguing for, rather than simply against others' statements or views. Because I'm not getting that, and I'm apparently not the only one.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  You said, "let their salaries increase". HOW? If the district doesn't have the budget, the salary isn't going to increase. Just like any business, they're not going to be able to pay out money they don't have. So no, you did not propose increasing their pay.

No, you didn't. You proposed using the "invisible hand of the free market". I told you why most of us wouldn't trust that idea.

by st3v3r 10y ago

No, you didn't. You proposed using the "invisible hand of the free market". I told you why most of us wouldn't trust that idea.

SamReidHughes 10y ago

The text you're quoting is nowhere in this thread... Look, teacher pay is in control of the government, not the market. And nurse pay and nursing demand has already had demonstrable impact on students' selection of what to study. (You can observe this by looking at the real world.) Is there a particular hypothesis that you're arguing against? Is it that increasing pay won't attract students to the line of study? Do you disagree with the equation (Teaching Budget) = (Teacher Pay) * (Number Of Teachers) in a material way? In fact I ... wait a second. Me: > I proposed increasing their pay, You: > No, you didn't. Me (upthread): > let their salaries increase. Well now, looks like I did. (You can observe this by looking at the real world.)

dredmorbius 10y ago
You two are talking past each other. The response to your "let their salaries increase" pointed out that there are districts (and counties and states) where this simply does not and can not happen given how government policies are structured. Much of that the result of quite deliberate "starve-the-beast" anti-tax policies, but also frequently a simply quite inadequate economic base. In the deep south of the US, say, the state of Mississippi, you have a de-facto segregated school system. Whites, even poor whites, attend private schools, largely religious, known as "Segregation Academies". Public schools are almost wholly the domain of blacks. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/in-southern-towns-segregation-academies-are-still-going-strong/266207/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/in-south... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_segregation_in_Sunflower_County,_Mississippi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_segregation_in_Sun... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy Markets don't exist independent of power constructs, a fact explicitly recognised by Adam Smith: "Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power." Much of Smith's Wealth of Nations is about those dynamics. This thread reads as if two ideological agendas are being pushed on the other, rather than some seeking of greater truth. I'm finding your line of argument the less pesuasive and less sincere.
- SamReidHughes 10y ago
  You are basing your theory of ideological agendas on the other guy's histrionics. I don't think the question, "Should we pay teachers more, or should we instead trick more teenagers into taking loans," is one that involves debating whether or not you believe in capitalism, or that needs you posting a bunch of links about segregation all of the sudden.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    Perhaps you might care to revisit your comments above then and clarify what it is you're arguing for, rather than simply against others' statements or views. Because I'm not getting that, and I'm apparently not the only one.
st3v3r 10y ago
You said, "let their salaries increase". HOW? If the district doesn't have the budget, the salary isn't going to increase. Just like any business, they're not going to be able to pay out money they don't have. So no, you did not propose increasing their pay.