18 ms·

When I was younger and financially unstable, I had a decision to make. Take a crappy restaurant job or live out of my car. I chose to live out of my car. Every

When I was younger and financially unstable, I had a decision to make. Take a crappy restaurant job or live out of my car. I chose to live out of my car. Every time I hear the argument that people in the restaurant industry are getting unfair pay, I ask myself, "I wonder who made that decision to work there in the first place" Stop this bullshit tipping. These people made a choice and then chose to complain about it. Also, this only seems to occur with FOH employees in the restaurant industry. You don't really hear BOH employees (you know, the people who actually do the work of cooking your food) complain.

doomtop 10y ago
Your privilege is showing. Not everyone who "chose" the job they have really has a choice. It's just not that simple. BOH employee pay rates are generally not based on the assumption of tips the way they are for FOH employees. And don't forget, BOH employees don't have to deal with the way some people treat service workers.
- Throwaway585250 10y ago
  Yours is showing too, along with an unhealthy dose of smugness. GP literally chose to be homeless instead of licking the boots of the wealthy for table scraps, which is a degree of courage above and beyond what could have been expected of him, but it was still courage. Saying that his ability to do this is privileged, is like claiming a man who saves a baby from a burning house is showing his able privilege: true, technically, but grosly unfair and an underhanded way of attacking him. Why do you eat at restaurants that don't pay staff enough? If "some people" treat service workers badly, and you know this because you've seen it, why don't you tell "some people" that they're acting like pigs? After the Spanish civil war was underway, tipping was made illegal within the Republic, and George Orwell reports that one of his first experiences "was receiving a lecture from a hotel manager for trying to tip a lift-boy". They had it absolutely right. A business model where staff get paid whatever their customers feel like moves all the financial risk from the rich business owner to the poor worker, emphasises the class differences between the two, and is generally a practice which anyone left-wing enough to be using the word "privilege" should find abhorrent.
  - TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
    This is something I had no clue about and will make a note to look into later. Thanks!
  - themartorana 10y ago
    I agree - having to rely on the kindness of someone with more disposable income - or worse, the shaming of another person - for your income while the business owner gets to keep more money as profit is abhorrent.
  - michaelmrose 10y ago
    I had to resist the urge to break into uncontrollable laughter when you compared living in your car to saving a baby from a burning building. Since this is a throwaway I strongly suspect you are your own cheerleader. Let me see if I can take you down a peg. A man who chooses to live in his own car instead of taking a servile job is presumably still in need of food to sustain him. You are basically glorifying living off other people instead of working for a living.
    - Throwaway585250 10y ago
      It's a ridiculous comparison, given in response to the ridiculous assertion that homelessness is a privilege. At the end of the day, at some point someone says "these working conditions are too shitty and I'd rather go look for something else". That person sets a lower bound on working conditions for people who aren't able to leave so easily. Saying "how dare you not work for a pittance with all the other poor buggers trapped on a wage where saving is impossible" is blind; calling it privilege is wilful stupidity.
    - youarewhite 10y ago
      You are quite the cunt aren't you
      - dang 10y ago
        We've banned this account and will ban what we believe to be your primary account if you do this again.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  It's very bizarre to me that the younger generations are learning to throw shame at people for not being in bad circumstances, particularly given the mixed-at-best results shaming produces.
  - TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
    It honestly blows my mind especially since I was describing a somewhat bad circumstance I was once in. Granted my initial response was somewhat hostile. Nonetheless, I don't understand my own generation sometimes.
  - jsmith0295 10y ago
    Based on the current political landscape, I think it's fair to say that the primary outcome of the shaming is rage
- jsmith0295 10y ago
  Really that's kind of a matter of what "choice" is, but without getting too deep into that discussion, my observation has been that it's driven more by a toxic culture than anything else. I was a minimum wage and food service worker until quite recently, and having worked with many different people that's been my observation. A lot of people "stuck" in that position have been so indoctrined in their own victimhood that they get caught in a negative loop of ruining their own lives and blaming everyone and everything else around them for it. And some of them just plain don't give a shit. And there are some others who manage to get past it, and they're the ones who often manage to make things better for themselves and end up around lower-middle class. Certainly not great, but it's a huge difference. But in my opinion our coddling and infatalizing people isn't really helping the underlying cultural problem, it's making it worse by creating its own kind of privilege, which is basically a freedom from most forms of responsibility aside from having to obey the law.
drewrv 10y ago
Not everyone has a choice, for example if you had kids at the time then living in your car would be unacceptable. Meanwhile, restaurant patrons make a choice to eat somewhere where tipping is customary.
- jsmith0295 10y ago
  If you had kids then you wouldn't need to live in your car because the government would volunteer to pay your rent.
  - drewrv 10y ago
    Great news for the 2.5 million homeless kids in the US. http://www.dailynews.com/social-affairs/20141117/homeless-children-increasing-in-southern-california http://www.dailynews.com/social-affairs/20141117/homeless-ch...
    - jsmith0295 10y ago
      Yeah, that was a stupid comment. My experience was basically that while living on a minimum wage job my coworkers who had kids were way better off than the rest of us. Agitating because they were the people who really seemed to care the least. Even with their kids they only wanted to do the bare minimum. Clearly that isn't always the case though, thalami you for pointing that out
  - michaelmrose 10y ago
    Its nice that you think its that easy. People who have never been poor for very long seem to bizarrely overestimate the welfare state. Most people that fall into financial hardship can either pay the same bills you do or end up homeless. Some portion of the long term disadvantaged can eventually find their way into programs to help them out after years of waiting.
    - jsmith0295 10y ago
      My experience with it first hand was that people I had worked with who had kids had a higher standard living than I did, and couldn't have been struggling that much since they still had money for cigarettes alcohol and weed, whereas I would barely be able to pay my rent and eat and couldn't afford air conditioning. I'm sure that isn't always the case though, I've probably just had an unusually bad experience with the people I've happened to know.
Amezarak 10y ago
It is very interesting. I worked in restaurants for many years and I never knew a server who made less than the back staff - usually they made several multiples of their pay in a night. I assume it's because servers (and I was one!) feel generally more empowered when it comes to their pay; they think complaining will accomplish something (strengthen social norms to tip), while kitchen staff know that what they get is what they get. No doubt server pay varies wildly, but I worked at a cheap buffet essentially just bussing tables and I never made less than kitchen staff and sometimes made up to 6x what they would make in a shift - usually about 3x, and management directed that we report the minimum amount possible, to get out of their payroll tax contribution, I assume. On top of that, employers are in fact nominally required to pay the difference between their tipped wage and the "real" minimum wage if they don't get enough tips (for some reason this isn't commonly known) to make the difference, but that situation is probably rare enough that businesses skate by without fulfilling their legal duty. [1] Frankly, I liked waiting tables and I'd do it again if it paid as much as programming. It's not all that crappy. :) And at the same time, I have a lot less sympathy for servers than I used to. Save your sympathy for the people who are paid minimum wage and don't get tips. Yes, that server is getting $2.15 instead of $7.25, but a) the business is required to make up the difference between $2.15 + tips and $7.25 and b) no server I have ever heard of, anywhere, is making less than $7.25/hour with tips. [1] https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips
- TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
  This is interesting. I am also in the same camp except BOH. If I could get paid to cook for living with the same pay I make now, I would do it in a heartbeat
- lsc 10y ago
  This is what I find interesting about the situation, and why I see tipping as a cultural rather than ethical imperative. If it was about poverty or social justice, it is a terribly inefficient way to go about fighting those battles. If instead you theorize that Tipping is largely about smoothing interactions between those of a higher economic class and the people who immediately serve them, the whole thing makes more sense. Even taking class out of it, tipping when you are out drinking kind of makes sense like "hey thanks for working so I can go have fun. Here is a little extra so you can treat yourself when you are off work." The idea is to make it less awkward for the customer to drink in front of someone who is sober and working, Because that is kind of an awkward situation for many folks
serge2k 10y ago
They are getting unfair pay in some places, thanks to bullshit laws that give them a truly ridiculous minimum wage.
- relaytheurgency 10y ago
  No they aren't. Read the law. A server's hourly wages with tips will always be at least the federal minimum wage.
michaelmrose 10y ago
If you live in a place where you know your servers are paid less than they spend on gas and don't tip on the premise that they should have made better life choices congratulations you are a terrible person. You could just factor that into the cost and decide if in total the experience is worth it or you could cook your own food.
michaelmrose 10y ago
Did you make the throwaway account just to congratulate yourself for sustaining yourself with food bought by welfare/others instead of working for a living?
dang 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12393551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12393551 and marked it off-topic, because most of it turned into a nasty spat. All: we ban accounts that repeatedly post the ugly sort of comment seen below, so please don't post those. Unfortunately the fine subthreads like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12393884 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12393884 get punished with the rest. I feel like a teacher making everyone stay late after class.

doomtop 10y ago

Your privilege is showing. Not everyone who "chose" the job they have really has a choice. It's just not that simple. BOH employee pay rates are generally not based on the assumption of tips the way they are for FOH employees. And don't forget, BOH employees don't have to deal with the way some people treat service workers.

Throwaway585250 10y ago
Yours is showing too, along with an unhealthy dose of smugness. GP literally chose to be homeless instead of licking the boots of the wealthy for table scraps, which is a degree of courage above and beyond what could have been expected of him, but it was still courage. Saying that his ability to do this is privileged, is like claiming a man who saves a baby from a burning house is showing his able privilege: true, technically, but grosly unfair and an underhanded way of attacking him. Why do you eat at restaurants that don't pay staff enough? If "some people" treat service workers badly, and you know this because you've seen it, why don't you tell "some people" that they're acting like pigs? After the Spanish civil war was underway, tipping was made illegal within the Republic, and George Orwell reports that one of his first experiences "was receiving a lecture from a hotel manager for trying to tip a lift-boy". They had it absolutely right. A business model where staff get paid whatever their customers feel like moves all the financial risk from the rich business owner to the poor worker, emphasises the class differences between the two, and is generally a practice which anyone left-wing enough to be using the word "privilege" should find abhorrent.
- TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
  This is something I had no clue about and will make a note to look into later. Thanks!
- themartorana 10y ago
  I agree - having to rely on the kindness of someone with more disposable income - or worse, the shaming of another person - for your income while the business owner gets to keep more money as profit is abhorrent.
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  I had to resist the urge to break into uncontrollable laughter when you compared living in your car to saving a baby from a burning building. Since this is a throwaway I strongly suspect you are your own cheerleader. Let me see if I can take you down a peg. A man who chooses to live in his own car instead of taking a servile job is presumably still in need of food to sustain him. You are basically glorifying living off other people instead of working for a living.
  - Throwaway585250 10y ago
    It's a ridiculous comparison, given in response to the ridiculous assertion that homelessness is a privilege. At the end of the day, at some point someone says "these working conditions are too shitty and I'd rather go look for something else". That person sets a lower bound on working conditions for people who aren't able to leave so easily. Saying "how dare you not work for a pittance with all the other poor buggers trapped on a wage where saving is impossible" is blind; calling it privilege is wilful stupidity.
  - youarewhite 10y ago
    You are quite the cunt aren't you
    - dang 10y ago
      We've banned this account and will ban what we believe to be your primary account if you do this again.
oldmanjay 10y ago
It's very bizarre to me that the younger generations are learning to throw shame at people for not being in bad circumstances, particularly given the mixed-at-best results shaming produces.
- TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
  It honestly blows my mind especially since I was describing a somewhat bad circumstance I was once in. Granted my initial response was somewhat hostile. Nonetheless, I don't understand my own generation sometimes.
- jsmith0295 10y ago
  Based on the current political landscape, I think it's fair to say that the primary outcome of the shaming is rage
jsmith0295 10y ago
Really that's kind of a matter of what "choice" is, but without getting too deep into that discussion, my observation has been that it's driven more by a toxic culture than anything else. I was a minimum wage and food service worker until quite recently, and having worked with many different people that's been my observation. A lot of people "stuck" in that position have been so indoctrined in their own victimhood that they get caught in a negative loop of ruining their own lives and blaming everyone and everything else around them for it. And some of them just plain don't give a shit. And there are some others who manage to get past it, and they're the ones who often manage to make things better for themselves and end up around lower-middle class. Certainly not great, but it's a huge difference. But in my opinion our coddling and infatalizing people isn't really helping the underlying cultural problem, it's making it worse by creating its own kind of privilege, which is basically a freedom from most forms of responsibility aside from having to obey the law.

drewrv 10y ago

Not everyone has a choice, for example if you had kids at the time then living in your car would be unacceptable. Meanwhile, restaurant patrons make a choice to eat somewhere where tipping is customary.

jsmith0295 10y ago
If you had kids then you wouldn't need to live in your car because the government would volunteer to pay your rent.
- drewrv 10y ago
  Great news for the 2.5 million homeless kids in the US. http://www.dailynews.com/social-affairs/20141117/homeless-children-increasing-in-southern-california http://www.dailynews.com/social-affairs/20141117/homeless-ch...
  - jsmith0295 10y ago
    Yeah, that was a stupid comment. My experience was basically that while living on a minimum wage job my coworkers who had kids were way better off than the rest of us. Agitating because they were the people who really seemed to care the least. Even with their kids they only wanted to do the bare minimum. Clearly that isn't always the case though, thalami you for pointing that out
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  Its nice that you think its that easy. People who have never been poor for very long seem to bizarrely overestimate the welfare state. Most people that fall into financial hardship can either pay the same bills you do or end up homeless. Some portion of the long term disadvantaged can eventually find their way into programs to help them out after years of waiting.
  - jsmith0295 10y ago
    My experience with it first hand was that people I had worked with who had kids had a higher standard living than I did, and couldn't have been struggling that much since they still had money for cigarettes alcohol and weed, whereas I would barely be able to pay my rent and eat and couldn't afford air conditioning. I'm sure that isn't always the case though, I've probably just had an unusually bad experience with the people I've happened to know.

Amezarak 10y ago

It is very interesting. I worked in restaurants for many years and I never knew a server who made less than the back staff - usually they made several multiples of their pay in a night. I assume it's because servers (and I was one!) feel generally more empowered when it comes to their pay; they think complaining will accomplish something (strengthen social norms to tip), while kitchen staff know that what they get is what they get. No doubt server pay varies wildly, but I worked at a cheap buffet essentially just bussing tables and I never made less than kitchen staff and sometimes made up to 6x what they would make in a shift - usually about 3x, and management directed that we report the minimum amount possible, to get out of their payroll tax contribution, I assume. On top of that, employers are in fact nominally required to pay the difference between their tipped wage and the "real" minimum wage if they don't get enough tips (for some reason this isn't commonly known) to make the difference, but that situation is probably rare enough that businesses skate by without fulfilling their legal duty. [1] Frankly, I liked waiting tables and I'd do it again if it paid as much as programming. It's not all that crappy. :) And at the same time, I have a lot less sympathy for servers than I used to. Save your sympathy for the people who are paid minimum wage and don't get tips. Yes, that server is getting $2.15 instead of $7.25, but a) the business is required to make up the difference between $2.15 + tips and $7.25 and b) no server I have ever heard of, anywhere, is making less than $7.25/hour with tips. [1] https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips

TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
This is interesting. I am also in the same camp except BOH. If I could get paid to cook for living with the same pay I make now, I would do it in a heartbeat
lsc 10y ago
This is what I find interesting about the situation, and why I see tipping as a cultural rather than ethical imperative. If it was about poverty or social justice, it is a terribly inefficient way to go about fighting those battles. If instead you theorize that Tipping is largely about smoothing interactions between those of a higher economic class and the people who immediately serve them, the whole thing makes more sense. Even taking class out of it, tipping when you are out drinking kind of makes sense like "hey thanks for working so I can go have fun. Here is a little extra so you can treat yourself when you are off work." The idea is to make it less awkward for the customer to drink in front of someone who is sober and working, Because that is kind of an awkward situation for many folks

serge2k 10y ago

They are getting unfair pay in some places, thanks to bullshit laws that give them a truly ridiculous minimum wage.

relaytheurgency 10y ago
No they aren't. Read the law. A server's hourly wages with tips will always be at least the federal minimum wage.

michaelmrose 10y ago

If you live in a place where you know your servers are paid less than they spend on gas and don't tip on the premise that they should have made better life choices congratulations you are a terrible person. You could just factor that into the cost and decide if in total the experience is worth it or you could cook your own food.

michaelmrose 10y ago

Did you make the throwaway account just to congratulate yourself for sustaining yourself with food bought by welfare/others instead of working for a living?

dang 10y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12393551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12393551 and marked it off-topic, because most of it turned into a nasty spat. All: we ban accounts that repeatedly post the ugly sort of comment seen below, so please don't post those. Unfortunately the fine subthreads like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12393884 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12393884 get punished with the rest. I feel like a teacher making everyone stay late after class.