7 ms·

as a practical matter, i don't believe it's possible to have "optional" tipping that doesn't create obligation (even if that would be desirable). either you cr

by jonahx 10y ago

as a practical matter, i don't believe it's possible to have "optional" tipping that doesn't create obligation (even if that would be desirable). either you create a cultural norm where tipping isn't allowed or expected, which Uber has effectively done, or you have a situation like restaurants, where the tip may as well be part of the price, unless you're cool being the asshole who doesn't tip, which most people aren't. if tipping is an option, through a kind of cultural game-theoretic pressure, the situation will always devolve into the restaurant norm. at least that's how it is in the states, and short of massive cultural changes i don't see that changing.

chrisseaton 10y ago
> if tipping is an option, through a kind of cultural game-theoretic pressure, the situation will always devolve into the restaurant norm. at least that's how it is in the states In the UK tipping in restaurants is optional and, while it sounds really weird to say this, I don't think the waiters and waitresses seem to care either way. I don't get a different reaction from them if I tip or if I don't. They don't seem elated if I tip a lot or disappointed if I tip a little. Nobody seems to care and this situation seems stable as it's been this way as long as I've been an adult.
- res0nat0r 10y ago
  I think it is because they aren't getting paid $2.13/hr like servers in the USA are.
  - ghurtado 10y ago
    But this is a bit of a chicken and egg problem, isn't it? You could just as easily argue that the wages are so low because tipping is pretty much a given.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      It's actually enshrined into law - restaurants are allowed to pay less than minimum wage because of tipping. It's a perversion of the whole norm, since it effectively turns tipping into a subsidy to the restaurant owner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        As your link says, they are not allowed to pay less than minimum wage. They are allowed to set hourly wages for tipped employees lower than minimum wage, but they have to ensure that the total compensation of the employee averages out to minimum wage.
        mratzloff 10y ago
        Realistically, if the restaurant owner has to contribute anything beyond their hourly rate to the paycheck of the server, that server will be fired (or the business is so slow that it will go under soon).
        _asummers 10y ago
        My experience as a server was a lot of < $1 paystubs after taxes on tips.
        Spooky23 10y ago
        Not necessarily. I briefly worked at a 24x7 roadside place where tipped employees would occasionally fall under minimum wage due to slow periods or customers who would either stiff the waitress or tip out $0.35 on an egg, toast, coffee which cost $2.65. That place systematically robbed those staff by refusing to pay minimum wage and falsifying records and withholding taxes based in nonexistent tips. The Labor department fined then pretty heavily -- but that isn't an uncommon practice.
        mratzloff 10y ago
    - LordHumungous 10y ago
      Seattle recently passed $15 minimum wage and now a lot of restaurants are charging a "service fee" and putting up signs that discourage you from tipping. A much better system imo.
      - nommm-nommm 10y ago
        Washington State specifically doesn't allow tipped employees to be paid a lower hourly wage!
      - toomanybeersies 10y ago
        What's the point of a service fee on top of the cost of your meal though? Why not incorporate it into your meal, since it's non-optional. I noticed they did this in Singapore. You'd be charged a service fee on top of your bill, I can't remember if they popped tax on top of that too. If it's non-optional, it should be included in the cost.
        ddeck 10y ago
        >What's the point of a service fee on top of the cost of your meal though? For the same reason airlines don't include mandatory charges in their fares - humans are not particularly good at rational pricing evaluation. It's known as partition pricing and generally results in higher revenues - from "The Effects on Perceived Restaurant Expensiveness of Tipping and Its Alternatives": [1] "Furthermore, participants ordered more expensive meals when automatic gratuities were added to the bill than when the costs of service were built into menu prices" [1] http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1162&context=chrpubs http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic... See also: http://www.msi.org/reports/divide-and-prosper-effects-of-partitioned-prices-on-consumers-price-recall/ http://www.msi.org/reports/divide-and-prosper-effects-of-par...
        LordHumungous 10y ago
        Because if you raise menu prices by 20% customers will balk. Maybe eventually when people are used to the new system that will happen.
  - panglott 10y ago
    The differential between server minimum wage and regular minimum wage used to be much lower, but the regular minimum wage keeps getting adjusted up due to inflation &c.
  - gambiting 10y ago
    In Poland a common wage per hour for a server is 5 pln(low end) - 10 pln(high end)/hour = 1.28/2.56 USD. Tipping is just weird, full stop.
    - jjawssd 10y ago
      > Tipping is just weird, full stop. How does this conclusion follow from your previous statement?
  - relaytheurgency 10y ago
    Servers are actually never paid that wage. If a server's tips do not elevate them above the standard minimum wage, the restaurant is required to compensate them at the standard minimum wage. This was at least the law when I worked in the service industry.
    - res0nat0r 10y ago
      Yes, very true. The fact really is in the USA if we eliminated tipping, the cost of the food on the menu would just go up by $X number of dollars, and people don't want that, they want low prices for the items on the menu which is why the system also is the way it is.
      - themartorana 10y ago
        I don't believe you. No one I know likes tipping. It's awkward no matter how you slice it. We would all much rather just pay what it costs and not have to tip. -- Looked it up. You were right. Well, at least in the pay structure. 85% of surveyed people prefer a tipping pay structure to including it in the price of food. I think it has to do with the perceived idea that tipping leaves the diner in control and leaves the ability to punish a bad waiter. Maybe I'm wrong about that too. https://www.surveymonkey.com/blog/2013/04/18/tipping-in-restaurants/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/blog/2013/04/18/tipping-in-rest...
        rtpg 10y ago
        There was a freakonomics episode on this. People believe they have control, but it turns out that , even if the amount people tip differs per person, people basically never change how much they tip.
        michaelmrose 10y ago
        No job wherein the customer directly employs you should give customers direct control of employees wages. Can you imagine the custom applied across the board. I'm sorry doctor that appendectomy scar is a bit to big for my liking I'm only tipping you $180.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  This is the case in every country I have ever been. If you read a travel guide for any country it might say that tips are usually given to taxi drivers, restaurant staff etc, but only in the US has zero tipping almost become equivalent to not paying the tab in full. Also, when I go to the US with 5-10 year intervals the norms for tipping seem to have always crept upwards.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    It's pretty much 20% here it seems. Then they raised the minimum wage. So restaurants added a 20% service fee on to cover it. Okay, fine. That's actually the outcome I wanted. Except some places left the tip line. So now people still tip out of obligation. Never ends.
    - iamdave 10y ago
      I'm curious where people stand on the "To Insure Proper Service" backronym? I've always bucked back on that by saying "Well, taking some sense of pride in your work, even if that work is bringing people their food and are enjoying the experience of your establishment should insure proper service, otherwise why not work elsewhere?" but I'm not sure that's a very charitable stance to take so I've been wondering what others think as a means of evolving my position a bit?
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        It sounds like a pretty stupid backronym to me. On the other hand, if you know beforehand that you are expected to compensate the service staff outside of the bill from the establishment, you should factor in your comfort level with that arrangement before you order, not act like it is some obscure thing you'd never heard of being done.
      - valleyer 10y ago
        I'm against that backronym only because it would properly be "ensure", not "insure".
      - 10y ago
- jonahx 10y ago
  that's pretty interesting. any theories on the underlying cultural differences that explain it, or just different established customs? all the (many) wait-people here in the states i've known really dislike it, and it's generally considered either clueless, rude, or stingy not to tip at least 15%. i'm curious about things like: 1. if you go out with your friends to the pub, and don't tip on your bill, are you friends giving you shit about it or otherwise commenting or silently judging? 2. if you were on a date, would she notice and judge if you tipped poorly? (i know many women for whom it would be an instant deal-breaker here, essentially a social signal of many other undesirable traits)
  - chrisseaton 10y ago
    You don't tip in a pub, and you don't have a bill either as you pay for each round of drinks as you get them. I don't know how your date would be able to know how much you tipped, because you'd normally pay using a chip-and-pin credit card so you don't need to put any money on the table or write anything down.
  - prawn 10y ago
    In Australia, no one would expect you to tip at a pub. Depending on how long you stayed there, you might open a tab, but usually people pay by round. With something like Paywave, paying small amounts is trivial. On a date at a restaurant, they probably wouldn't care. Waitstaff don't really react differently whether you tip or not.
  - nikdaheratik 10y ago
    The "cultural difference" in Australia is that servers, etc. are actually paid the same (fairly high by U.S. standards) minimum wage or above for experience bartenders. So tipping just seems kind of dumb in most cases. The bill is the bill and you pay it and move on with your night. I think there are many reasons why it persists in the U.S. On the server end, it makes it easier for a casual employee to make a reasonable amount for a couple of nights work and you would make much less if you were straight hourly. It also allows service industry employers to "staff up" on those busy nights and not have to worry about keeping too many on the rest of the week. While customers get to do some social signalling, I think that's mostly adjacent to the server and owner's pay scheme. If the U.S. moved away from tipping, they would need to pay a higher minimum wage, keep fewer casual employees that only work 2-3 nights a week, and the regulars would be either full-time or half-time which means the busy nights would have fewer servers, though maybe more experienced so nearly as productive for the ones that work it as a full time job.
- c0g 10y ago
  Where do you live? I've lived in the south east since I was young and people definitely expect to tip/be tipped 10%. It's not as strong as America but definitely odd not to.
  - chrisseaton 10y ago
    Hmm that's not my experience. Sometimes the card machine doesn't even give an option to tip, so you can't always do it even when you want to.
- dawson 10y ago
  Optional only in so much that you will find 'Service is included' on your bill, at least in London it's common practice.
- gaius 10y ago
  Its quite possible this is because their employer keeps the tips. I generally pay the bill by card but tip in cash for that reason.
dboreham 10y ago
That's a US-centric weird custom. Not the case in many other countries. I some places (Japan, some South Pacific Islands) tipping is often considered downright rude. Also try getting Scottish people to tip with game theory and see how that turns out..
zik 10y ago
I guess you haven't lived anywhere else in the world other than the US then... Because tipping is completely optional everywhere except the US (and Canada). Even the US has only done it this way for about 100 years. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/magazine/12tipping-t.html?_r=5&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1423086904-xmM6Hk44A5dzPPioMk8utw& http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/magazine/12tipping-t.html?...

by jonahx 10y ago

chrisseaton 10y ago

> if tipping is an option, through a kind of cultural game-theoretic pressure, the situation will always devolve into the restaurant norm. at least that's how it is in the states In the UK tipping in restaurants is optional and, while it sounds really weird to say this, I don't think the waiters and waitresses seem to care either way. I don't get a different reaction from them if I tip or if I don't. They don't seem elated if I tip a lot or disappointed if I tip a little. Nobody seems to care and this situation seems stable as it's been this way as long as I've been an adult.

res0nat0r 10y ago
I think it is because they aren't getting paid $2.13/hr like servers in the USA are.
- ghurtado 10y ago
  But this is a bit of a chicken and egg problem, isn't it? You could just as easily argue that the wages are so low because tipping is pretty much a given.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    It's actually enshrined into law - restaurants are allowed to pay less than minimum wage because of tipping. It's a perversion of the whole norm, since it effectively turns tipping into a subsidy to the restaurant owner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      As your link says, they are not allowed to pay less than minimum wage. They are allowed to set hourly wages for tipped employees lower than minimum wage, but they have to ensure that the total compensation of the employee averages out to minimum wage.
      - mratzloff 10y ago
        Realistically, if the restaurant owner has to contribute anything beyond their hourly rate to the paycheck of the server, that server will be fired (or the business is so slow that it will go under soon).
        _asummers 10y ago
        My experience as a server was a lot of < $1 paystubs after taxes on tips.
        Spooky23 10y ago
        Not necessarily. I briefly worked at a 24x7 roadside place where tipped employees would occasionally fall under minimum wage due to slow periods or customers who would either stiff the waitress or tip out $0.35 on an egg, toast, coffee which cost $2.65. That place systematically robbed those staff by refusing to pay minimum wage and falsifying records and withholding taxes based in nonexistent tips. The Labor department fined then pretty heavily -- but that isn't an uncommon practice.
        mratzloff 10y ago
  - LordHumungous 10y ago
    Seattle recently passed $15 minimum wage and now a lot of restaurants are charging a "service fee" and putting up signs that discourage you from tipping. A much better system imo.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      Washington State specifically doesn't allow tipped employees to be paid a lower hourly wage!
    - toomanybeersies 10y ago
      What's the point of a service fee on top of the cost of your meal though? Why not incorporate it into your meal, since it's non-optional. I noticed they did this in Singapore. You'd be charged a service fee on top of your bill, I can't remember if they popped tax on top of that too. If it's non-optional, it should be included in the cost.
      - ddeck 10y ago
        >What's the point of a service fee on top of the cost of your meal though? For the same reason airlines don't include mandatory charges in their fares - humans are not particularly good at rational pricing evaluation. It's known as partition pricing and generally results in higher revenues - from "The Effects on Perceived Restaurant Expensiveness of Tipping and Its Alternatives": [1] "Furthermore, participants ordered more expensive meals when automatic gratuities were added to the bill than when the costs of service were built into menu prices" [1] http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1162&context=chrpubs http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic... See also: http://www.msi.org/reports/divide-and-prosper-effects-of-partitioned-prices-on-consumers-price-recall/ http://www.msi.org/reports/divide-and-prosper-effects-of-par...
      - LordHumungous 10y ago
        Because if you raise menu prices by 20% customers will balk. Maybe eventually when people are used to the new system that will happen.
- panglott 10y ago
  The differential between server minimum wage and regular minimum wage used to be much lower, but the regular minimum wage keeps getting adjusted up due to inflation &c.
- gambiting 10y ago
  In Poland a common wage per hour for a server is 5 pln(low end) - 10 pln(high end)/hour = 1.28/2.56 USD. Tipping is just weird, full stop.
  - jjawssd 10y ago
    > Tipping is just weird, full stop. How does this conclusion follow from your previous statement?
- relaytheurgency 10y ago
  Servers are actually never paid that wage. If a server's tips do not elevate them above the standard minimum wage, the restaurant is required to compensate them at the standard minimum wage. This was at least the law when I worked in the service industry.
  - res0nat0r 10y ago
    Yes, very true. The fact really is in the USA if we eliminated tipping, the cost of the food on the menu would just go up by $X number of dollars, and people don't want that, they want low prices for the items on the menu which is why the system also is the way it is.
    - themartorana 10y ago
      I don't believe you. No one I know likes tipping. It's awkward no matter how you slice it. We would all much rather just pay what it costs and not have to tip. -- Looked it up. You were right. Well, at least in the pay structure. 85% of surveyed people prefer a tipping pay structure to including it in the price of food. I think it has to do with the perceived idea that tipping leaves the diner in control and leaves the ability to punish a bad waiter. Maybe I'm wrong about that too. https://www.surveymonkey.com/blog/2013/04/18/tipping-in-restaurants/ https://www.surveymonkey.com/blog/2013/04/18/tipping-in-rest...
      - rtpg 10y ago
        There was a freakonomics episode on this. People believe they have control, but it turns out that , even if the amount people tip differs per person, people basically never change how much they tip.
      - michaelmrose 10y ago
        No job wherein the customer directly employs you should give customers direct control of employees wages. Can you imagine the custom applied across the board. I'm sorry doctor that appendectomy scar is a bit to big for my liking I'm only tipping you $180.
alkonaut 10y ago
This is the case in every country I have ever been. If you read a travel guide for any country it might say that tips are usually given to taxi drivers, restaurant staff etc, but only in the US has zero tipping almost become equivalent to not paying the tab in full. Also, when I go to the US with 5-10 year intervals the norms for tipping seem to have always crept upwards.
- serge2k 10y ago
  It's pretty much 20% here it seems. Then they raised the minimum wage. So restaurants added a 20% service fee on to cover it. Okay, fine. That's actually the outcome I wanted. Except some places left the tip line. So now people still tip out of obligation. Never ends.
  - iamdave 10y ago
    I'm curious where people stand on the "To Insure Proper Service" backronym? I've always bucked back on that by saying "Well, taking some sense of pride in your work, even if that work is bringing people their food and are enjoying the experience of your establishment should insure proper service, otherwise why not work elsewhere?" but I'm not sure that's a very charitable stance to take so I've been wondering what others think as a means of evolving my position a bit?
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      It sounds like a pretty stupid backronym to me. On the other hand, if you know beforehand that you are expected to compensate the service staff outside of the bill from the establishment, you should factor in your comfort level with that arrangement before you order, not act like it is some obscure thing you'd never heard of being done.
    - valleyer 10y ago
      I'm against that backronym only because it would properly be "ensure", not "insure".
    - 10y ago
jonahx 10y ago
that's pretty interesting. any theories on the underlying cultural differences that explain it, or just different established customs? all the (many) wait-people here in the states i've known really dislike it, and it's generally considered either clueless, rude, or stingy not to tip at least 15%. i'm curious about things like: 1. if you go out with your friends to the pub, and don't tip on your bill, are you friends giving you shit about it or otherwise commenting or silently judging? 2. if you were on a date, would she notice and judge if you tipped poorly? (i know many women for whom it would be an instant deal-breaker here, essentially a social signal of many other undesirable traits)
- chrisseaton 10y ago
  You don't tip in a pub, and you don't have a bill either as you pay for each round of drinks as you get them. I don't know how your date would be able to know how much you tipped, because you'd normally pay using a chip-and-pin credit card so you don't need to put any money on the table or write anything down.
- prawn 10y ago
  In Australia, no one would expect you to tip at a pub. Depending on how long you stayed there, you might open a tab, but usually people pay by round. With something like Paywave, paying small amounts is trivial. On a date at a restaurant, they probably wouldn't care. Waitstaff don't really react differently whether you tip or not.
- nikdaheratik 10y ago
  The "cultural difference" in Australia is that servers, etc. are actually paid the same (fairly high by U.S. standards) minimum wage or above for experience bartenders. So tipping just seems kind of dumb in most cases. The bill is the bill and you pay it and move on with your night. I think there are many reasons why it persists in the U.S. On the server end, it makes it easier for a casual employee to make a reasonable amount for a couple of nights work and you would make much less if you were straight hourly. It also allows service industry employers to "staff up" on those busy nights and not have to worry about keeping too many on the rest of the week. While customers get to do some social signalling, I think that's mostly adjacent to the server and owner's pay scheme. If the U.S. moved away from tipping, they would need to pay a higher minimum wage, keep fewer casual employees that only work 2-3 nights a week, and the regulars would be either full-time or half-time which means the busy nights would have fewer servers, though maybe more experienced so nearly as productive for the ones that work it as a full time job.
c0g 10y ago
Where do you live? I've lived in the south east since I was young and people definitely expect to tip/be tipped 10%. It's not as strong as America but definitely odd not to.
- chrisseaton 10y ago
  Hmm that's not my experience. Sometimes the card machine doesn't even give an option to tip, so you can't always do it even when you want to.
dawson 10y ago
Optional only in so much that you will find 'Service is included' on your bill, at least in London it's common practice.
gaius 10y ago
Its quite possible this is because their employer keeps the tips. I generally pay the bill by card but tip in cash for that reason.

dboreham 10y ago

That's a US-centric weird custom. Not the case in many other countries. I some places (Japan, some South Pacific Islands) tipping is often considered downright rude. Also try getting Scottish people to tip with game theory and see how that turns out..

zik 10y ago

I guess you haven't lived anywhere else in the world other than the US then... Because tipping is completely optional everywhere except the US (and Canada). Even the US has only done it this way for about 100 years. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/magazine/12tipping-t.html?_r=5&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1423086904-xmM6Hk44A5dzPPioMk8utw& http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/magazine/12tipping-t.html?...